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Old 05-03-2010, 03:57 AM   #1
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Default Macedonian National Anthem

Prolet, in the Macedonian national anthem, there is mention made of the Krushevo Republic, but the president of that republic, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned. Do you know why? Some sellout disgraces to our nation that were in power during and after WWII did their job well for the Communists.

They should make a spomenik of Karev in attack stance with a rifle in hand, and put it up in Sveti Nikole next to that dog called Kolishevski (with the rifle obviously aimed at the latter).
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:46 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Prolet, in the Macedonian national anthem, there is mention made of the Krushevo Republic, but the president of that republic, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned. Do you know why? Some sellout disgraces to our nation that were in power during and after WWII did their job well for the Communists....
With respect to all the Ilinden fighters from Krushevo, I don't think it's appropriate for Krushevo or any town, village or province to be specifically mentioned in the Macedonian NATIONAL anthem, unless you mention all the towns, villages and provinces where Macedonians have taken part in an insurrection.

For the record, the anthem that the Macedonian partizans used in World War II was "Izgrej Zora na Slobodata (Svobodata)". That was the official anthem used at the first Antifascist Assembly for the People's Liberation of Macedonia ('ASNOM'), on 2 August 1944 ( see http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Антифашистичко_Собрание_за_Народно_Ослободување_на _Македонија ). It was later rejected under Kolishevski's leadership, allegedly on the grounds that it was "Bulgarian", but I see nothing Bulgarian about it at all. Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does, but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.

"Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated. "Denes Nad Makedonija" misleadingly states that Macedonia has already been liberated i.e. that it LIVES FREE. "Izgrej Zora" is a more militant anthem, which came about as a march for a war of liberation. The true reason for its abolition may be that, after WWII, it was associated with those fighters who wanted to unify the Egej, Pirin and Vardar regions of Macedonia as a single republic (under a Balkan or Yugoslav Federation).

Here's a modern recording of Izgrej Zora:

YouTube - Зора на Свободата - Македонски Марш
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Last edited by aleksandrov; 05-03-2010 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:59 AM   #3
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i'd vote for this as a National anthem. na ke puknat Grcite

YouTube - Suzana Spasovska - Alexandar Car Makedonski

sory, lets get back on topic.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:36 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov View Post
...
For the record, the anthem that the Macedonian partizans used in World War II was "Izgrej Zora na Slobodata (Svobodata)". That was the official anthem used at the first Antifascist Assembly for the People's Liberation of Macedonia ('ASNOM'), on 2 August 1944 ( see http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Антифашистичко_Собрание_за_Народно_Ослободување_на _Македонија ). It was later rejected under Kolishevski's leadership, allegedly on the grounds that it was "Bulgarian", but I see nothing Bulgarian about it at all. Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does, but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.

"Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated. "Denes Nad Makedonija" misleadingly states that Macedonia has already been liberated i.e. that it LIVES FREE. "Izgrej Zora" is a more militant anthem, which came about as a march for a war of liberation. The true reason for its abolition may be that, after WWII, it was associated with those fighters who wanted to unify the Egej, Pirin and Vardar regions of Macedonia as a single republic (under a Balkan or Yugoslav Federation).

Here's a modern recording of Izgrej Zora:

YouTube - Зора на Свободата - Македонски Марш
Here is the text in the contemporary Macedonian literary language:

ИЗГРЕЈ ЗОРА НА СЛОБОДАТА

Изгреј зора на слободата
Зора на вечната борба
Изгреј во душите и во срцата
На сите робови по светот!

Тирани чудо ќе направиме
Ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
Со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
И пак ќе се ослободиме!

Јунаци смели пак развија
Окрвавени знамиња
Комити нови зашетаа
Низ македонската земја!

Тирани чудо ќе направиме
Ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
Со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
И пак ќе се ослободиме!

Ечат шуми, полиња, планини
Од бојни песни и Ура
Одат борците – великани
Напред, готови за борба!

Тирани чудо ќе направиме
ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
и пак ќе се ослободиме!

Нас ништо веќе не ќе не исплаши
И така живееме ден за ден
Свети се горите наши
Во нив слободни ќе умреме!

Тирани чудо ќе направиме
ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
и пак ќе се ослободиме!
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ''Aleksandrov"
Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does......
Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?
Quote:
..........but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.
I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje, checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation. It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more common to other Macedonian dialects.
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"Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated.
I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:27 AM   #6
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If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mastika View Post
If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.
And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?
I don't think that Kolishevski is known for any linguistic endeavors. Sure, he had an influence over the general direction Koneski had to take (as far away from "Bulgarian" as possible), but there is nobody that has had more formal influence on the modern Macedonian literary language than Koneski.

Quote:
I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje,..

checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation.
Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.

'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.

I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.

In any case, there is no doubt that the formal Bulgarian literary language had substantial influence on how Macedonians wrote in the early 20th century, given that no formal Macedonian literary language was taught at the time and that most of the Macedonian revolutionaries and intellectuals from the Ilinden period were educated in Exarchate schools. However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.

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It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more of common to other Macedonian dialects.
In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.

Quote:
I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).
I would leave any analysis of the extent to which the text of Izgrej Zora is common to 'all' Macedonian dialects to dedicated linguists. However, I note that all of the Macedonian dialects have evolved over the past 100 years, with direct and indirect influences from the formal Bulgarian, Serbian and Macedonian literary languages, all of which are relatively new in their present forms.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:11 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by aleksandrov View Post
And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?
It was sung in different dialects by different people around Macedonia. If a song is to be national anthem then it must be in the literary language.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:31 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Aleksandrov
Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.
I don't believe my response indicated that I was ignorant of those facts, instead, I was making reference to their works that contain information regarding dialects from all over Macedonia, including the home villages of Delcev (Kukush), Gruev (Smilevo) and Misirkov (Postol).
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'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.
I would say that most, if not all of those documents, flags, etc come after the Exarchate was created and gained influence in Macedonia's religious and educational institutions.
Quote:
I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.
I don't doubt it, but it would only be a small handful of dialects found in the peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia. Kje (or ke) is the norm in the overwhelming majority of Macedonian dialects.
Quote:
However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.
I agree completely.
Quote:
In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.
I don't think Misirkov was too far off the mark, but I agree with you where it concerns the unnecessary exclusion of certain elements in our language for the sake of not appearing close to Bulgarian and Serbian.
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