My recent trip to Macedonia

[Phoenix]

Oh god yes. I've been swamped lately. Anything specific you want me to touch on? A specific city, topic, just a story about interactions?

Anything that you'd like to share with us Gocka...

I think most (younger) visitors only spend a few weeks at a time in Macedonia, which is not enough to get a good understanding of the place compared to your four month stay.
Your insights go deeper than most, that's why I would like to hear more...

[Liberator of Makedonija]

This is an extended discussion (in Greek) with people from Pieria about the exact topic. There was a small population in Aeginio (Libanovo) but that is debated there because the Bulgarian statistics totally omit Pieria. They were probably exchangeables with Bulgaria. (I'm busy and couldn't read much of it).

https://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=109512&start=45

You can see a green pock in North Pieria in this pro-Serbian map.

Is Katerina the place marked Katherine on this map? Either way the border regions between Macedonia and Thessaly is listed as predominantly Greek in this map.

[Gocka]

Here is some random things

Struga: Albanians dominate commerce. 90% of the businesses and factories in Struga are owned and employed with Albanians. The population is roughly 50/50 the torbeshi are the difference makers, and all though they speak Macedonian as their primary language, they seem to vote and socialize more with Albanians.

Despite controlling 90% of commerce you really wouldn't know that is as a foreign tourist who doesn't understand the local situation. Despite a lot of the pictures in the Albanization thread, I didn't see very many Albanians flags on display, 1 big one I cant remember where, and maybe a couple small ones in random places. Although Albanians and Macedonians in Struga live very serrate lives, they seem indifferent to each other.

The Macedonian villages in Struga are going the same way as the Ohridski villages. They are ghost towns. Volino is nice but most of the village lives in the USA. Moroista used to be quite vibrant but now its clearly being abandoned. In Moroista on the outskirts Albanians have started buying land and have built a few businesses. Kalista which is very nice has a hand full of Macedonians left. Meanwhile Labunista is like a small city and has no Macedonians, its very vibrant mostly torbeshi some Albanians. Veleshta is where all the drugs and criminals are, oh and junk yards if you need car parts, all Albanian. The point is that Albanians villages at least in Struga, are large and vibrant, they have money and invest in the country and where they live. They run good businesses, have good manners if you are a customer, and for some reason at least in Struga, always have the best price on everything. Struga is dirty as hell. Garbage, unmowed weeds. This is an ongoing theme I saw in all Albanians dominated areas. They have no regard for the environment, even more so than Macedonians, which is say a lot. There are basically no beaches left in Struga, the Albanians have all built cafes where there used to be beaches, the cafes are not only right on the water, polluting it, they also block access to the water. Also 90% of the cafes in Struga are clearly money laundering operations. The same cafes have been in business for years, and when ever I go, no matter the time of day or day of week, they are empty, yet always open. When I say empty I mean it literally, they dont have a single person sitting in them on a Friday night.

Surprisingly the Albanians are starting to take root in Ohrid too, which only 10-15 years ago was unheard of. They follow the same MO, they start businesses and slowly the community builds around them

Ohrid is really nice now. One good thing VMRO actually did is build it up and make it more tourist friendly. Now I'm sure they took a nice cut of all the construction that was done, but I was pleasantly surprised with many of the improvements that weren't there only 2 years ago when I went last. They built a hiking trail with stone pavers up in the hills behind Kaneo, it wraps around the mountain from SV Kliment all the way to the Kale. They started building a promenade and bike path from the edge of the city to the beaches, a few km long. It looks amazing and gives access from the city to the beaches by foot or bike, which used to be a car only trip.The Charsija is clean, the churches are renovated and well kept. There are stairs from the end of the Turkish Charshija straight up to Gorna Porta. A lot of the beaches have cafes on them now which I dont care for but it looks nice and I'm sure a lot of people enjoy it. One beach in particular, Golden beach, looks like it could be in Miami, really modern and built up. The water was very clean everywhere, kind of cold this year though. The city has so much potential if they would just get over trying to make it a summer/beach destination, which it can never be. There is too much local competition with access to the sea for the same price. If the diversify the city more and stop trying to attract beach and night club goers, they can do pretty well in a niche market.

Bitola is stuck in the 80's. Pretty sad, I really like Bitola but it clearly gets no investment what so ever. At least its not infested with Albanians like the north west.

Skopje is a shit hole. Its trying so hard to be a cosmopolitan city, but all I see is a bunch of Seljaci pretending to be city folk. Every time I go its dirtier, more congested, more Albanians, more crime. I actually like some of the Skopje 2014 projects, from an aesthetic point of view of course. The parts they sunk money into look decent, but the symbolism of Skopje is much the same as Macedonia as a whole, a place that doesn't know what it is or what it wants to be, a place that has lost touch with its roots, is totally utilitarian, and corrupt. I hate it. Skopje is my least favorite place in all of Macedonia.

Kichevo is a ghost town with a lot more Albanians than I ever remember it having.

Prilep, maybe my second least favorite place in Macedonia. Its such a weird place. The people are weird the city is weird. Yea lets not talk about Prilep.

I had the pleasure of visiting Jablajnca, a village in Strushko way up in the mountains it was amazing. When you first enter you look around and you say okay, this was one tiny village. Then you look up, and realize the village is built all up in the hills and it just keeps going up. Apparently the Turks didn't capture Jablajnca until something like a 150 years after the surrounding lower lying areas, and when you actually see it, you realize why. Its a old dead village now, but it is so interesting to imagine what it would have been like in its peak, fending off Turkish invaders.

Despite being from R O Macedonia and going many many times, I traveled a lot more this time than other times. I realized that our roots as a people are in the villages in the hills. Sadly and ironically as a people I think we are so connected with the land, and the ironic part is that we are going lose that land.

I always thought the communists ruined Macedonia, culturally, and now I believe the single worst thing they did was rebuild Skopje. Our loss of culture and history can be summed up with just Jablajnca and Skopje. What we were and what we are now.

We went from being robust mountain dwellers who lived from the land, to a bunch of pot bellied pichki with man purses.

While I'm hating on Skopje, a little Ohrid Skopje joke to sign off on.

Skopjanec and Ohrigjanec ( Both Men)

Sk: Abe imas kajche?

Oh: nemam kajche

Sk: Am kakov Ohridzanec si ti bez kajche

Oh: A ti imas dechko?

Sk: Nemam dechko

Oh, Am kakov Skopjanec si ti bez dechko.

Pusti Skopjanista

BTW Ohridzani are the laziest sons of bitches I've ever seen. They have some kind of Caribbean complex/syndrome going on. Except much more uptight and rude.

Anything that you'd like to share with us Gocka...

I think most (younger) visitors only spend a few weeks at a time in Macedonia, which is not enough to get a good understanding of the place compared to your four month stay.
Your insights go deeper than most, that's why I would like to hear more...

[Starling]

So basically Macedonia needs better environmental laws and Macedonians actually investing in Macedonian business in their own country, on top of everything else. I still stand by what I've said about talking to Macedonians around more, conveying different ideas and perspectives from different places and discussing how to address various problems.

[Phoenix]

Thanks again Gocka...it's depressing reading to say the least.

I just can't make sense of it. I've always thought that Macedonia had immense potential but we don't seem to have the people to take advantage of the situation.

The Macedonian's are too apathetic, too lazy and too defeatist to realise that they're losing a little bit of their soul each day...

[Starling]

There are so many layers to the problem at this point you might as well pick one you're in a good position to deal with and try and coordinate with others to change things for the better. If you can't directly deal with the political situation in Macedonia or aren't in contact with Macedonians in Macedonia to introduce new ideas and help undo the apathy, there's also just generally informing people around you of what Macedonians have had to deal with and working on dismantling the systemic racism against Macedonians in international institutions. There's also working at strengthening your local Macedonian community so it doesn't fall into similar problems. Defeatism is an issue within the diaspora as well and as much as we need to discuss the problems themselves, we don't really discuss solutions enough, which contributes to the feelings of helplessness. Doing something, no matter how seemingly small, can make a difference.

[Stevce]

Name and shame the parents of Andrej Kalaj.
Anyone know any media in Macedonia that would investigate this story?

[Gocka]

Sadly its not even the parents. They are considered "powerful" so the school's administration bends over backwards without anyone even asking for it, they see it as a necessity to avoid POTENTIALLY upsetting the parents.

Some on on here always says "Macedonians are always so clever" this is another example of that. They offer their own capitulation while under not actual duress, just acting on the fear of potential duress.

I think there is a word for that, hmmmmm, oh that's right, they call them COWARDS through and through

Name and shame the parents of Andrej Kalaj.
Anyone know any media in Macedonia that would investigate this story?

[Gocka]

A few random things I picked up.

Most Macedonians won't admit that they actually support a political party. They always enter into a conversation pretending to be indifferent or that they don't support either of the main to parties. Push the right buttons though and you find out they do in fact have a bias one way or the other. Most people shy away from expressing political views out loud.

Macedonians believe every conspiracy theory known to man and even some that aren't known to anyone. Here are just a few winners.

Hillary Clinton holds a seat in Albanians parliament

Americans are against Macedonians because they are Catholic? and Macedonians are Orthodox.

America made Germany Take in 2 million refugees so that they dont have to.

George Bush had the Twin towers shot with missiles so that he could attack Iraq and steal their oil

If Hillary Clinton won the US presidential election, the US would have attacked Macedonia.

Zaev was installed by the USA

Gruevski was installed by Russia.

Gruevski was set up by the USA

Muslims will take over all of Europe

Jews control the USA

Jews control all the money in the world

[Gocka]

Here are some basic things that most people I talked to don't know


MATH, it is utterly embarrassing how many YOUNG Macedonians don't known basic math. Most people cant do division and multiplication. Forget about Algebra, even college educated kids haven't got a clue about it. Calculus, no one even knows what that is. This is an utter failure and means Macedonians for generations to come are going to be nothing but dumb factory workers.

History, 90% of people have never heard of most of the revolutionaries and 99% couldn't tell you any notable facts about the revolution. They may have heard of Jane and Goce but have no idea why and what they did or what they stood for. They don't know anything about world history either. The world wars, industrial revolution, Rome, the Renaissance, nothing.

Science LOL. People dont know basic thing about physics, biology, and chemistry.

Geography, for all the laughing at Americans Macedonians are just as bad with Geography. They know the names of European countries, but have no idea where they are. The rest of the world is completely lost on them.

Religion, Most people think Catholic and Orthodox is like Islam and Christianity,. They don't know that there are many Christian religions. They know they are Orthodox but have no clue what that means. They also don't know that there are more religions than just Orthodox Catholic and Muslim.

Democracy, They dont understand how it works. They think of the government as a separate entity of the people. That the government and its politicians are not part of the people, and that their actions are beyond the scrutiny and reach of the citizens. They honestly don't understand their own rights in a democracy. Its that same old slave complex.

The state budget, I didn't meet a single person who understood that the government doesn't have money. That what ever it spends somehow came out of the pockets of the citizens at some point. I actually got a kick out of telling people that when the government steals money or misuses it that it came out of their own pocket.

HYGIENE, Macedonians are cleanly, but no hygienic. They put effort into making things look tidy, but haven't got a freaking clue about bacteria, germs, illness etc. Then again how could they when they dont know a freaking thing about biology. What do you expect form a people who thing promaja (draft) is the root cause of everything bad.

Health, the convoluted logic I witnessed relating to basic principles of good health practices. People dont hydrate for shit. Don't eat a balanced diet, smoke and drink way to much. Practically everyone is vitamin deficient and has low iron.


Business, Macedonians can't run businesses for shit. They are disorganized, rude, dishonest. Albanians are just as uneducated as Macedonians but they can at least run a half decent business.

In general Macedonians are shockingly poorly educated and informed. Its at a third world level. They are worlds away from the rest of the west. I'm not talking about some poor village folk, I'm talking about college educated people that are dumb as door knobs or as my father in law says, "glup ko tochak"

I can not point out one thing that I can say without doubt that Macedonians are genuinely good at. For example, every country no matter how poor or fucked up, has something they can do good.

Macedonians aren't freaking good at anything. Uneducated, bad at sports, no knack for art or music, nothing. How is that possible? Iceland made the world cup! It's a frozen wasteland half the size of Skopje!

We are a nation of uneducated pot bellied peasants. And then we are surprised when there is no revolution. We are a million years away from the level of thought required to break this cycle. That populace is decimated. A total and utter failure of a nation in every way.

[Risto the Great]

Gocka.
Ouch!

[Starling]

What the hell do they even learn in school then? Aren't there at least rudimentary laws regarding education? That right there is a massive problem we need to find a way to address. Lack of quality education is exactly the kind of things people do to control a population or keep them complacent.

[Vangelovski]

Gocka, I agree with everything you've said in your last post. Everything in that country is third world - health, education, infrastructure, housing, utilities (where they exist), everything. These people are too busy thinking about who's got money and how they got it, and worrying about idiotic village customs and superstitions to care about anything else.

[Starling]

Might as well make a project of visiting Macedonians and teaching them basic stuff and how to teach it to others. Also how to network online and some online resources for education and Macedonian stuff. I get that visiting is frustrating for those who've managed to do so but we have to start somewhere and I don't really know whose fault this lack of education is exactly but clearly people from outside that godawful system need to breathe life back into the people so they can learn how to help themselves.

[Solun]

Zaev was installed by the USA

Gruevski was set up by the USA

Jews control the USA

For all their ignorant thoughts, they still seem to get some right