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Old 04-04-2010, 07:11 AM   #11
Serdarot
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Originally Posted by mail2onur View Post
The word "Bulgar" is Turkish as partly stated in newspaper article, means "mix, mixed" which signifies the group of people who "mixed" with other people from different ethnicity, culture, religion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars
B´l = Bel, White
Gar = Crn, Black

very logic

suporting my theory that the macedonian termi "grci" might describe them as "gar-ci" , those who had dark skin, dark skinned, darker than we
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Old 04-04-2010, 07:34 AM   #12
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btw, kardas, without any "chouvinist" ideas from my side, i think that in the Turkish language there are many "macedon" / "slavic" words (words of the dialects spoken in Macedonian, Thracia, Anadolia)

for example, even for the traditional Turkish Tee, you use

Samo-Var
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serdarot View Post
btw, kardas, without any "chouvinist" ideas from my side, i think that in the Turkish language there are many "macedon" / "slavic" words (words of the dialects spoken in Macedonian, Thracia, Anadolia)

for example, even for the traditional Turkish Tee, you use

Samo-Var



Yes "Kardas"(brother), you are right

Yes we got some slavic words in Turkish and I know there are some Turkish words in every language at Balkan countries and its totally normal, since we all lived so close to each other for like 550 years, so its perfectly normal to share some words, habits and culture in general between us


P.S : btw, the word "Balkan" is Turkish as well
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Onur, how do you access these archives? Do you have any contacts in Turkey that run research for you at government institutions where these archives are held? Are you able to find out what we need to do to make that happen?

There are many answers that can be obtained from the Ottoman records, it is a resource that has not been effectively tapped into yet by the Macedonians and it would be great if we could get some initiative happening here.

Most ottoman and republic of Turkey archives are open to the public for all kind of research. All original archival documents are being hold at Ankara, capital of Turkey.

Problem is, Ottoman archive is probably one of biggest in the world which contains documents between the year 1300s to 1923 and all those documents has been written with some kind of special Turkish with certain codes, ciphers and definitions which never or rarely used by regular Turkish language speakers.

But there are 100s of experts who works with millions of governments archive documents to de-code and translate them to modern Turkish and digitize the paper documents.



I think around %55 of Ottoman documents has been decoded and digitally recorded atm. You can find them at the web site "http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr".

Direct link to "online archive catalog search";
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/katalog/

You can register to the web site for free and use the simple search box to scan document headlines. You can note down the code number of the document you want and request from authorities to send you the scanned copy of the original documents. There are english version of the "Online catalog" too but problem is you need to know Turkish to be able to search and read the document headlines.

For the remaining %45 of the Ottoman archives, you need to come to Turkey personally and request documents by hand. You also need an expert on Turkish language and government archival writing style to be able to read them.

Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:12 PM   #15
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Thanks for the information, I will look into it. I have a copy of Evliya Celebi's book of travels, where the texts are displayed in the original Ottoman Turkish with Arabic script, Ottoman Turkish transliterated with modern Turkish script, and an English translation. Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mail2onur View Post
Direct link to "online archive catalog search";
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/katalog/

I just did a small research for you guys

I searched the term "Makedon" and total of 4000 documents came up.

I noticed, after the year 1870s, I see reports of ottoman agents which mentions about Greek and Bulgarians are in dispute with each other about who will occupy Macedonia and how. I see mentions of Bulgar and Greek agents meeting and talking about how they share the macedonia lands between them;

Quote:
Date: 12/S /1311 (Hicri), File #:7, Folder #:6, Group Code: Y..PRK.AZN.
Makedonya'yı Bulgarlaştırma faaliyeti . Sofya'da müebbed kalebendliğe çarptırılan İvanco veled Gregori'nin af talebi.

Date: 29/M /1312 (Hicrî), File #:607, Folder #:6 , Group Code: A.}MKT.MHM.
Arnavudluk ve Makedonya ahalisi arasında Panhelenizm akımını yaymak amacıyla çoğunluğu Osmanlı tabiiyyetindeki Arnavudlar tarafından kurulan cemiyetin fesat hareketleri.
Translations:
Date : 1893, File #:7, Folder #:6, Group Code: Y..PRK.AZN.
The rebellion movements in Macedonia for Bulgarian profit. One of rebels named "Ivanco veled Gregorie" arrested in Sofia for involving these crimes and condemned to imprisonment.

Date: 1894, File #:607, Folder #:6 , Group Code: A.}MKT.MHM.
The progression report of the recently formed association by Albanians, in the name of Hellenization(convert them as Greeks) of the Albanian and Macedonian people.




Quote:
Date: 24/S /1291 (Hicrî), File #:18, Folder #:37, Group Code: MF.MKT.
Girid'den getirilen ve Makedonya hükümdarlarından Philip'in meskukatından olan altının müzede örneği bulunduğundan sahibine iadesi ve kazı çalışmalarının da tatil edilmesi.
Date:1874, File #:18, Folder #:37, Group Code: MF.MKT.
The golden artifacts of Macedonian king Phillip which found/discovered in Crete and deportation to the artifacts to the museum. Further digging at the site is prohibited to secure the possible rest of artifacts which can be find at the digging site.

Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I have a copy of Evliya Celebi's book of travels, where the texts are displayed in the original Ottoman Turkish with Arabic script, Ottoman Turkish transliterated with modern Turkish script, and an English translation. Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.

Evliya Çelebi was a wealthy and very well educated Turkish traveler who journeyed throughout the territories of the Ottoman Empire and the neighbouring lands(means whole of EU, north Africa, most of Asia) over a period of forty years at the year 1650s.

After 40 years of travelling, he wrote a huge travelers book which consists 10 volumes. Especially his notes for all Balkanic territories are very detailed.

His notes also reveal the source of todays widely disputed "mysterious Ethiopian roots" of some people at todays Greece.

In his notes about Crete and surrounding areas, he says that nearly all of inhabitants are the African/Asian dark skinned, curly haired and Jew look-a-like immigrants who came from a seaport of Egypt in vast numbers(At the summer of 1667 or 1670, i dont remember exactly now)

Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
...Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.
i´ve met a Turkish guy here in Hamburg, his mother is from a family of a "Seljanik Turkce" / "Rumely Turcke" (Turks from Solun, from Macedonia)

probably she´s from a family of mixed marriage between Turks and Macedonian Muslims, i wasn´t asking too many questions about her grandfathers etc., couse she said she is Turkish, and i respected that

it is also not so important.

important is the following:

my wife made traditional Macedonian "Pogacha" as one of the presents we brought. when they saw it, they said "oh, Po´ácha" , and we laughed, and said yes, Pogacha...

they call it Po´acha on Turkish.

me and her could understand eachother on "arhaic" Macedonian Dialect (very similar to the dialect spoken in Mariovo - Lerin and some other parts of Macedonia).

And both, as well as my friend, his mother too, told me the same, that that dialect, was the home-spoken language by their ancestors.

Their MOTHER LANGUAGE? (named with "modern" term.)

And what is more interesting, she said it was widely spoken, and it is still widely spoken, by Macedonians as well by Turks.

and to connect it with the topic:

as well as widely version of "Koine" was created when the need for such a language was there -> when the settlers from africa and asia were in such a number -> similar story happened with the Turks and the real-original Bulgars.

"dialects" were created with the time, so they could understand eachother.

when the Turks came in the teritories of today mediteranian Turkey, they didnt found desert, neither they created one

Bulgarians too.

They both came on a teritory that was center or important part of several very powerfull empires / other kinds of states, that had all the benchmarks of a high developed civilizations.

The (hi)story of the Turks is very long and complicated, not the place to discuss it too much here, what is important, is that they came, and as they spread in the provinces, they mixed with the local population, mostly with those who converted to Islam.

And the "languages" evolved, "new" were created, some got little bit forgoten (almost no1 spoke "greek" 200 years ago, most of the "greeks" had to learn it, etc...)

So we need not only experts in Turkish, we need experts in each language / dialect that was spoken / used on the Balkans, and experts in many other sciences, who will do serious work and explain many unanswered questions

Not to "prove" diferences and find some "grounds" for claiming something, like the "greeks" are doing, not only to "defend the name", but to get more material on the things that are connecting us, and to use it for further cooperation between the modern Balkan Nations, and as a powerfull "weapon" against our enemies.

Remember, Plato?

more or less:

If those who live north of Olimpus, who are nummerious as the leaves, unite (under one leader), there is no force that can defeat them.

Same rule for today, if we who share blood and culture on the Balkans (and maybe little bit further ) unite...

Who will need EU and NATO?
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mail2onur View Post
Evliya Çelebi ...

In his notes about Crete and surrounding areas, he says that nearly all of inhabitants are the African/Asian dark skinned, curly haired and Jew look-a-like immigrants who came from a seaport of Egypt in vast numbers(At the summer of 1667 or 1670, i dont remember exactly now)
this was well known fact, untill the creation of the modern myth abouth the Ancient Greece and the Greeks

i´ve mentioned only few sources on this forum, many are mentioned by other members, and there are unnumbered sources that tell the same story.

The Ancient Greeks were "newborn" nation -> mixure between afro-asiatic settlers (same as Celeby writes) , with small part of the natives.

Gar-ci = ofensive term, "blacks", "niggers", "gjupci" , some of us still call the "gjupci"*

Couse they origin particulary from Gyupta.

Egipet and India were both called Gyupta

further, we have :

Makedon-ci
Afrikan-ci
German-ci
ov-ci
mese-ci

it is clear "-ci" is used for plural and it is used to form a "etnonim" or a term who describe group of people or "family" name.

like

Metal-ci
Bobev-ci i Robev-ci
Ajdu-ci
Glupa-ci
Luda-ci

Gar-ci
G´r-ci

Gar = Kar = Black

even in modern Turkish, Kara = Black

Crno / Chrno / Cherno (black) also have roots - is connected with Kar / Gar.

K <-> C

Kar
Car / Char
Charnaya Zemia-Zemna / Charna Zemlja / Crna Zemja

Gar- Garava - Garav - Gara - Kara -> in the macedonian dialects is widely used and still in usage, as well in some serbian dialects, mostly in vojvodina (the number of macedonian settlers there is very big...)

My opinion -> Gar / Car / Kar = "proto-word" , pre-ancient word for black. Not to be connected only with one modern language.

Should i mention that also in Tamil and Sanskrit kAr = Dark, Black, Blackness...?

and now analize the name of the

B´l-Gar
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:44 PM   #20
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also

iz-GAR-a (iz-gor-ra)

when something is burned, iz-GOR-eno, pretezno e CRNO

Gor-(e)-no e GAR-no

is-kar-a / iz-ga-ra = SKARA , GRILL, G´r-ill , Gar-il, Gor-il(o)

not sure if it was Belchev who already wrote / spoke about that...

even in the "western" languages

ne-gro (gro = gor)
ne-gar
ni-ger
"nigga(r)"

so many Kara Gari
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