Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #46
    Beware of Greeks bearing culture - African roots of classical Greek civilization
    Science News, Dec 7, 1991 by Ron Bower

    12Next
    With the publication earlier this year of the second volume of his book Black Athena (Rutgers University Press), Martin Bernal assumed a major role in the ongoing scholarly debate over the roots of Western civilization. In a packed convention hall, Bernal, or Cornell University, elaborated his thesis -- buttressed with linguistic, archaeological and historical evidence -- that Egyptian and Phoenician cultures greatly influenced the rise of Greek civilization beginning around 3,000 years ago.

    The notion that Greek gods, language, technology and political life derived from African and Semitic peoples, either through the borrowing and adaptation of ideas or through military conquest, held sway among historians until the 1820s, Bernal argues. At that point, the "ancient model" gave way to the assumption that white, Indo-European speakers from the north, known as Aryans, conquered Greece and endowed it with civilization. Several factors spurred the sudden academic change of heart, Bernal asserts: racism toward Africans; prejudice toward non-Christians; a widespread belief that Greece represented a formative stage of later European civilization, in contrast to the separate , more advanced Egyptian culture; and popular philosophical arguments that people living in cold climates achieved the greatest intelligence and morality. Racism still fuels academic neglect of Egyptian and Phoenician influence on Greek culture, Bernal contends.

    In Bernal's opinion, ancient Egyptians did not belong to a "black race," although they lived in Africa. "Race is a social construct," he maintains. Egyptians carried a mix of physical features from Africa, Asia and the Mediterranean, making the title of his book somewhat misleading, Bernal acknowledges.

    "My enemy is not Europe, but the concept of 'pure' civilizations," he contends. "The mixture of different influences has served as the creative force behind all civilizations, including those of Egypt and Greece."

    COPYRIGHT 1991 Science Service, Inc.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #47
      The Nigerian/Ethiopian Roots Of the Ancient Greeks – Edited By – Jide Uwechia

      Ethiopian Greek
      Genetic Evidence of the Nigerian and Ethiopian Origin of the Ancient Greek
      Edited By Jide Uwechia from cited Sources

      The Benin Haplogroup or Haplogroup 19 Common in Africans, southern Greeks, Sicilians, and Albanians

      There are at least four distinct African, (known as Senegal, Congo, Benin, Bantu Hbs Haplogroups) and one Asian chromosomal backgrounds (haplotypes) on which the sickle cell mutation has arisen.

      The Benin haplotype (which originates from Nigeria, West Africa) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. Per:Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its DiversityRSITY: http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

      [/caption
      ]

      Nigeria, west Africa appears the most logical origin of the sickle mutation in Greece evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms (1991). It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.



      Additionally, previous data suggest that the S/Bantu haplotype (from Southern Africa) is heterogeneous at the molecular level. Recent studies also report a similar heterogenity for the Benin Haplogroup. A study demonstrated the presence of the A -499 TA variation in sickle cell anemia chromosomes of Sicilian and North African origin bearing the S/Benin haplotype (from Nigeria). Being absent from North American S/Benin chromosomes, which were studied previously, this variation is indicative for the molecular heterogeneity of the S/Benin haplotype. Am. J. Hematol. 80:79-80, 2005.

      A study was done in Albania (which borders Greece) relating to sickle cell anemia, sickle cell beta-thalassemia, and thalassemia major in Albania. The focus of the study was the characterization of sickle cell mutations. As one would expect, it was shown that the HbS mutation in the Albanian sample is the Benin (Nigeria)-originating haplotype #19. See, Boletini E, Svobodova M, Divoky V, Baysal E, Dimovski AJ, Liang R, Adekile AD, Huisman TH.; Sickle cell anemia, sickle cell beta-thalassemia, and thalassemia major in Albania: characterization of mutations. : Hum Genet. 1994 Feb;93(2):182-7.

      According to a study done in 1973, before the availablity of the advanced data cited above, “the occurrence of the sickle-cell trait in southern Europe …. is believed to reflect gene flow from the Middle East.” See A. P. GELPI, M.D, “Migrant Populations and the Diffusion of the Sickle-Cell Gene” August 1, 1973 vol. 79 no. 2 258-264 http://www.annals.org/content/79/2/258.abstract.

      The problem with this 1973 study is that it assumes that the sickle cell genes came with the Arabs. Alas, updated research work has proven beyond doubt that the sickle cell genes proven to exist in southern Europe are exclusively Sickle cell gene Haplotype 19 or the Benin Sickle cell gene from Nigeria.

      Y Haplogroup E-M78 and YAP In Black Africans and Greeks

      Y Haplogroup E-M78 a derivative of E3B is a signature African gene as confirmed in research studies over the last few years. The high frequency of this haplogroup in Greece suggests the presence of a substantive African population in that region during prehistoric and historical time periods.

      A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks ….. [then there is] the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.â€

      (Semino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2004) E3b originates from East Africa while there is a high frequency of J-M267 in the East Coast of Africa as well as the Red sea coast of Arabia.

      A recent sampling of the Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17 of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data).

      In spite of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78 frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that (44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring microsatellite haplotypes A. (Novelletto, personal communication) (Cruciani et al. 2004).

      The study by by Di Giacomo et al. found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A which is highly specific to West Africa, R1a, DE, and J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2). R1* which probably gave rise to R1a is found in Northern Cameroon. DE is found principally among Nigerians and it is suspected that it originated from Nigeria. J is very prominent in East, and North Africa.

      High-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal … an East Africa homeland for E-M78.Origin. See Ornella Semino, Chiara Magri, et al “Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=15069642

      HLA Genetic Relationship Between Ancient Greeks and Black Africans

      HLA genes are reliable markers of past population movement and are still used in laboratories today to establish genetic inter-relationship amongst seemingly diverse peoples.

      HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks (2001) was a study conducted by Dr. Arniaz and other scholars in a top flying Spanish University. This study uses HLA genes to establish the African dimension of the roots of ancient Greece.

      According to the Arniaz study, …..Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. See Arnaiz-Villena A,et.al: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27

      There is a fraudulent claim (by those with idealogical investments in the topic) on the Internet that this study has been “retracted” or “refuted.” The study is perfectly valid. Sub-Saharan-specific and quasi-sub-Saharan-specific alleles were definitely detected in the Greek population at the DRB1 locus, and this is not open to question.

      It would be helpful here to discuss the study that was retracted, and the reason why. It is the work titled: “The origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Bill77
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 4545

        #48
        Originally posted by Akzion View Post

        I’m in white race (though I know you don’t believe me). I tried to find some tool in the internet, or some paper that measures or categorises the colour of the skin
        Again, this has nothing to do with Modern Greece. If you in your imagination want to associate with Ancient Hellenes, Then be my guest. But you can't pick and choose what you take.

        Just remember, at the end of the day, its only in your imagination. You are not related to the "Garamantes" or their descendants the "Carians". Nor would you be related to the new comers Arian Hellenes (who ever they were) that had to acquaint themselves with the original ocupiers "Negros". Just like you would need to acquaint your self to unfamiliar people at a party when you finally arrive.

        Regarding the problem you have finding a tool or some paper that measures or categorises the colour of skin? well i think you are exaggerating. All you need is eyes and a mirror. But if you were to try and explain it on paper for future generations to understand, why don't you do it like the Ancient people did.

        This below is work from Scholars who viewed and deciphered the original Ancient Writing. I don't expect you to understand the original script, (for your language has more Turkish and Macedonian words in it than Ancient Greek) But they do translate it, so we all can understand.


        GREEK DESCRIPTIONS OF NEGROES

        The Classical Greeks most commonly described Negroes as “Ethiopians”, or

        In Diod. Sic. 3.8.2, Tetr. 2.2, and Strabo 15.1.24, Sext. Empiric. Adv. Ethicos, In Herodotus 7.70,43 for example, is associated with black skin, woolly hair, and a flat nose.

        Herodotus even differentiates between the woolly-haired and the straight-haired Ethiopians, in relation to each other from West to East; which we today know is the result of Arabic/Semitic admixture.

        In Arr. An. 5.4.4. Aristot. Probl. 10.66.698B., an Ethiopian’s skin is called the blackest in the world.

        Lucian Adv. Indoctum 28. notes the proverbial

        which means to “wash an Ethiopian white”.

        When the Greeks wanted to illustrate blackness of color, they often selected the Ethiopian for this purpose. (Lucian Bis. Acc. 6. In which reference is made to tanning the skin until it resembles an Ethiopian’s, and Ach. Tat. 4.5.2, in which mention is made of a flower among the Greeks as dark as an Ethiopian’s skin.
        Last edited by Bill77; 01-08-2011, 12:48 AM.
        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          #49
          So after all that you can still deny & lie about it.The truth is you still keep doing the same thing & that is lying & denying that your roots are african.
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Serdarot
            Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 605

            #50
            i am very sure that the population what is called by some sources "Ancient Greeks", was mixure of African and Asian settlers, mixed with small part of the Natives.

            But i extremely disagree with some afro-centrists and other scientist and "scientist", that the Pelasgians were Black.

            I mean, i dont have anything against any race, but to call "group of Black Tribes" those who in their name have the colour they had - Pel / Bel, is at least unserious...
            Bratot:
            Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              #51
              Serdarot the greeks were difinitely black there is no way to describe it the problem is they won't come to terms or they won't embrace it openly.They still won't admit that they are related to the negroes except for agamoi.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Ottoman
                Banned
                • Nov 2010
                • 203

                #52
                Currently Greece and Turkey have both a serious ID crisis these days, Greece always wanted to be a part of the western world, in other words a real European country, Turkey is too much westernized/Americanized.

                Both countries have a eastern history not western, I remember Onur already told this somehwere on the site. If we forget our roots and history there will be nothing left in the future, we were never a part of the west in the past and we never will be.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #53
                  Ottoman you are spot on greece has an identity crisis.It can't work out who or what it is.It won't admit to it's roots.It's never satisfied allways looking for that something else.We know it's roots are in afrika in the sudan because that's where it came from.We also know that being macedonian Is exclusive to the macedonian people themselves that's out of the question.Also seeking a turkish identity is out of the question as they are not really turkish.So nobody want's them & nobody takes them seriously.You see time and again on these threads they are stubborn & won't admit to anything it's the least they can do.Either that or they should just go back to their roots & find out their real inglorius past & face reality for a change.At the Mto we have given them a chance to expressthemselves & they have blown any credibility they had,if any.
                  Last edited by George S.; 01-08-2011, 05:57 AM.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #54
                    Originally posted by George S. View Post
                    Serdarot the greeks were difinitely black there is no way to describe it the problem is they won't come to terms or they won't embrace it openly.They still won't admit that they are related to the negroes except for agamoi.
                    George, I don't agree with the generalisation that Proto-Greeks "were definetly black", as the most dominant element in the formation of the Proto-Greeks was Indo-European. That there was an influental Afro-Asiatic element in their society, however, is beyond doubt; the extent of that influence is what is being discussed here.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      #55
                      Som Good point it looks like we are overstating the afro bit because we are overconcentrating our focus on it any way i have said my bit it's up to them to admit it.It's true what you said it's at an influence at best.I have merely chosen to zoom in on that afro influence but they don't seem to be admitting to it.
                      Good on agamoi for admitting their past.I have never said that being related to the african people was bad or that they are of any less value.We just find it frustrating & it's like hitting a brick wall sometimes.
                      Last edited by George S.; 01-08-2011, 06:07 AM. Reason: ed
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Agamoi Thytai
                        Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 198

                        #56
                        Originally posted by George S. View Post
                        The Nigerian/Ethiopian Roots Of the Ancient Greeks – Edited By – Jide Uwechia

                        Ethiopian Greek
                        Genetic Evidence of the Nigerian and Ethiopian Origin of the Ancient Greek
                        Edited By Jide Uwechia from cited Sources

                        The Benin Haplogroup or Haplogroup 19 Common in Africans, southern Greeks, Sicilians, and Albanians

                        There are at least four distinct African, (known as Senegal, Congo, Benin, Bantu Hbs Haplogroups) and one Asian chromosomal backgrounds (haplotypes) on which the sickle cell mutation has arisen.

                        The Benin haplotype (which originates from Nigeria, West Africa) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. Per:Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its DiversityRSITY: http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

                        [/caption
                        ]

                        Nigeria, west Africa appears the most logical origin of the sickle mutation in Greece evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms (1991). It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.



                        Additionally, previous data suggest that the S/Bantu haplotype (from Southern Africa) is heterogeneous at the molecular level. Recent studies also report a similar heterogenity for the Benin Haplogroup. A study demonstrated the presence of the A -499 TA variation in sickle cell anemia chromosomes of Sicilian and North African origin bearing the S/Benin haplotype (from Nigeria). Being absent from North American S/Benin chromosomes, which were studied previously, this variation is indicative for the molecular heterogeneity of the S/Benin haplotype. Am. J. Hematol. 80:79-80, 2005.

                        A study was done in Albania (which borders Greece) relating to sickle cell anemia, sickle cell beta-thalassemia, and thalassemia major in Albania. The focus of the study was the characterization of sickle cell mutations. As one would expect, it was shown that the HbS mutation in the Albanian sample is the Benin (Nigeria)-originating haplotype #19. See, Boletini E, Svobodova M, Divoky V, Baysal E, Dimovski AJ, Liang R, Adekile AD, Huisman TH.; Sickle cell anemia, sickle cell beta-thalassemia, and thalassemia major in Albania: characterization of mutations. : Hum Genet. 1994 Feb;93(2):182-7.

                        According to a study done in 1973, before the availablity of the advanced data cited above, “the occurrence of the sickle-cell trait in southern Europe …. is believed to reflect gene flow from the Middle East.” See A. P. GELPI, M.D, “Migrant Populations and the Diffusion of the Sickle-Cell Gene” August 1, 1973 vol. 79 no. 2 258-264 http://www.annals.org/content/79/2/258.abstract.

                        The problem with this 1973 study is that it assumes that the sickle cell genes came with the Arabs. Alas, updated research work has proven beyond doubt that the sickle cell genes proven to exist in southern Europe are exclusively Sickle cell gene Haplotype 19 or the Benin Sickle cell gene from Nigeria.

                        Y Haplogroup E-M78 and YAP In Black Africans and Greeks

                        Y Haplogroup E-M78 a derivative of E3B is a signature African gene as confirmed in research studies over the last few years. The high frequency of this haplogroup in Greece suggests the presence of a substantive African population in that region during prehistoric and historical time periods.

                        A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks ….. [then there is] the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.â€

                        (Semino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2004) E3b originates from East Africa while there is a high frequency of J-M267 in the East Coast of Africa as well as the Red sea coast of Arabia.

                        A recent sampling of the Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17 of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data).

                        In spite of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78 frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that (44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring microsatellite haplotypes A. (Novelletto, personal communication) (Cruciani et al. 2004).

                        The study by by Di Giacomo et al. found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A which is highly specific to West Africa, R1a, DE, and J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2). R1* which probably gave rise to R1a is found in Northern Cameroon. DE is found principally among Nigerians and it is suspected that it originated from Nigeria. J is very prominent in East, and North Africa.

                        High-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal … an East Africa homeland for E-M78.Origin. See Ornella Semino, Chiara Magri, et al “Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=15069642

                        HLA Genetic Relationship Between Ancient Greeks and Black Africans

                        HLA genes are reliable markers of past population movement and are still used in laboratories today to establish genetic inter-relationship amongst seemingly diverse peoples.

                        HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks (2001) was a study conducted by Dr. Arniaz and other scholars in a top flying Spanish University. This study uses HLA genes to establish the African dimension of the roots of ancient Greece.

                        According to the Arniaz study, …..Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. See Arnaiz-Villena A,et.al: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27

                        There is a fraudulent claim (by those with idealogical investments in the topic) on the Internet that this study has been “retracted” or “refuted.” The study is perfectly valid. Sub-Saharan-specific and quasi-sub-Saharan-specific alleles were definitely detected in the Greek population at the DRB1 locus, and this is not open to question.

                        It would be helpful here to discuss the study that was retracted, and the reason why. It is the work titled: “The origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean
                        More Afrocentrism crap...Yeah, ancient Greeks were definitely black...in your Greek-hating microcosm.But do you know something,ancient Macedonians were also black.How was it possible for them to escape admixture with black people when blacks overran all of Greece as you claim,do you really believe there were any borders to prevent them of doing so?That's why there are recorded black Macedonians to,like Clitus the Black:

                        And since you seem to appreciate so much the value of extreme Afrocentristic crap when it deals with the "African origin" of Classical Greece,time to see the other side of the coin:

                        "Clitus Niger, Aide to Alexander Clitus Niger was one of several Black men of responsible rank in the army of Philip ... Clitus Niger, a Black general, was the son of Alexander's nurse, Lanice. He was an aide to his friend Philip"





                        "Alexander the Great had an African general,Clitus Niger,that is Clitus the black".
                        Osei examines the contributions that Africans have made to the arts, sciences, philosophy and religion. In doing so he chronicles and weaves a contextual history. Osei was a diligent self-trained historian, and acutely familiar with all manner books and documents about ancient and modern Africa.


                        "Alexander the Great's foremost general was a Negro, Clitus Melas, (28) that is Clitus the Black (in Latin, Clitus Niger)"


                        Now if black people were so influential in ancient Macedonia that they were even to be found among Alexander's generals,that means they were present there in large numbers,don't you agree?At least there was never recorded any Athenian,Spartan,Theban or Corinthian Black general!But hey,don't be distressed,you probably have with Alexander and Clitus as much relation as you have with Charlemagne or WilliamTell

                        As for the Arnaiz-Villaina hoax,what's his value since three of the scientist that carried out this research were Macedonians,K.Dimitroski,M.Blagoevska and V.Zdravkovska?

                        And why should a strictly genetical study speak of historical issues in that biased manner:

                        "Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived between
                        northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans and
                        were considered by the classical Greeks as ‘‘non-Greek barbarians’’
                        that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games (3). Herodotus wrote that ‘‘Macedonians’’ were ‘‘Dorians’’ and were never
                        admitted to the Greek community (4). They did not speak Greek
                        but another language presently unknown and of which only proper
                        names remain; nowadays, they speak a Slavic language"

                        Not only they deal with matters that are out of their competence,furthermore they even distort the ancient source which they invoke,since they fail to mention that Macedonians were finally allowed to participate in the Olympic games while Herodotus nowhere wrote Macedonians were not admitted to the Greek community!But what would one expect,when all this is signed by 3 Macedonians?And you want me to consider this as a creditable and impartial study???Read below what famous genetists like Neil Risch,Alberto Piazza and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza say about this "study":

                        The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans;and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans.It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
                        We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
                        Neil Risch
                        Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA
                        Alberto Piazza
                        Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy
                        L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
                        Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA



                        If you read this,it all makes sense:

                        "In 2002,Arnaiz-Villena was suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre, after being charged with embezzlement of funds thought to exceed EUR 300,000.,after a countable inspection to the section that Arnaiz directed found countable irregularities of at least EUR 861,000.He was also accused of the "purchase of products not used in his department's health care activities; purchase of hospital products used in health care activities but in quantities much greater than needed; falsification of statistical data apparently to justify purchases; humiliating treatment of department staff; delay in health care activities; and transfer of department products to the university." On November 2003 the Court of Administrative Litigation no. 8 of Madrid confirmed the non-criminal charges, and sentenced him to 33 months of suspension from work without pay. It did not consider the charge of embezzlement, which as of that date was pending in criminal court.
                        Arnaiz-Villena denied all charges against him, saying he was the victim of a "public lynching", suggesting that the charges may have a political motivation connected with the Human Immunology scandal. Both the hospital and the university stated that the charges had nothing to do with the Human Immunology affair. Arnaiz-Villena said he was prepared to "go to Strasbourg" to prove his innocence. Though suspended from the hospital, he continued his work at the University".
                        Here are the references:


                        Last edited by Agamoi Thytai; 01-08-2011, 07:46 AM.
                        "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                        Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                        Comment

                        • Onur
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2389

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                          Again, this has nothing to do with Modern Greece. If you in your imagination want to associate with Ancient Hellenes, Then be my guest. But you can't pick and choose what you take.
                          Actually modern Greeks are related to some degree too. If you read Evliya Celebi`s journey notes of 17th century, he says that Crete and southern Morea was full of immigrants from northern Africa who came from ports by the sea. He says that these people was looking like Jews. Ofc when he says Jews in 17th century, you should think about real semitic/Arabic Jews from Palestine, like Sephardi, not the whitewashed European ones today.

                          So, we can say that the migrations from northern Africa to Greece didn't stop at least `till 17th century and i believe the major indicator of this among some modern Greeks is their extra curly woolly hair which you cant see in any of neighboring people, not in Turkey, Macedonia, Bulgaria but only in Greece.

                          I`ve never seen extra curly black haired Bulgarian or Turkish person, did you? maybe less than 1%, thats all.

                          Comment

                          • Agamoi Thytai
                            Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 198

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Onur View Post
                            Actually modern Greeks are related to some degree too. If you read Evliya Celebi`s journey notes of 17th century, he says that Crete and southern Morea was full of immigrants from northern Africa who came from ports by the sea. He says that these people was looking like Jews. Ofc when he says Jews in 17th century, you should think about real semitic/Arabic Jews from Palestine, like Sephardi, not the whitewashed European ones today.

                            So, we can say that the migrations from northern Africa to Greece didn't stop at least `till 17th century and i believe the major indicator of this among some modern Greeks is their extra curly woolly hair which you cant see in any of neighboring people, not in Turkey, Macedonia, Bulgaria but only in Greece.

                            I`ve never seen extra curly black haired Bulgarian or Turkish person, did you? maybe less than 1%, thats all.
                            Onur,do you really believe that Jews and Greeks would ever intermarry in significant numbers as you claim?On the contrary,there is clearly recorded that many Jews of Salonica and in other major Ottoamn cities converted to Islam,the so-called Donmeh.It's also a matter of fact that most leading members of the Young Turk movement were descendands of those Donmeh.
                            "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                            Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                            Comment

                            • Onur
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 2389

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                              Onur,do you really believe that Jews and Greeks would ever intermarry in significant numbers as you claim?On the contrary,there is clearly recorded that many Jews of Salonica and in other major Ottoamn cities converted to Islam,the so-called Donmeh.It's also a matter of fact that most leading members of the Young Turk movement were descendands of those Donmeh.
                              Evliya Celebi didn't mean that in 17th century. He meant that these northern African immigrants in Crete and Morea were looking like Arabian and Ethiopian Jews. He didn't mean the Jews in Salonika who came from Spain.

                              Yes some Jews became muslim but their numbers was so few because you know, religion concept of Jews is totally different from Christians and muslims. Jews believes that their religion can only spread by a Jew gives a birth to a child. It`s a blood connection get passed from Jewish mothers to the children. So, this gives some kind of racial significance to their religion. Their religion is also part of their identity they get when they have born as a Jew. Converting to some other religion is total denial of their self identity and it`s something very rare among all Jews.

                              Young Turks came to leadership with a coup, so their enemies(pro-monarchy people) spread this "donmeh" stories to erase their credit among people. It was a lie. Same people who spread these "donmeh" stories did same thing for Ataturk too cuz he was against the Ottoman monarchy again, like the Young Turks people. It was a lie again.

                              But all these stuff are different issue. If we return to our main issue in the thread, Evliya Celebi was talking about Arabian-Ethiopian Jews look-a-like people in Crete, southern Morea...
                              Last edited by Onur; 01-08-2011, 10:24 AM.

                              Comment

                              • Agamoi Thytai
                                Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 198

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Onur View Post
                                But all these stuff are different issue. If we return to our main issue in the thread, Evliya Celebi was talking about Arabian-Ethiopian Jews look-a-like people in Crete, southern Morea...
                                Any link to this,even in Turkish?It's very difficult though to find his books online in English except of the first two volumes that describe his travels in various parts of Asia Minor and Armenia.The other 8 volumes are in Turkish but with Arabian script.
                                "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                                Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X