Contingency policy for sovereignty

[Rogi]

Organisations like FIFA and countries like Australia will follow the lead of the UN, so long as we are listed by the acronym there, everything will remain the same.

I just want to take this opportunity to highlight the inconsistency and double standards of Australian Foreign Policy.

I refer of course to Australia's recognition of the Union of Myanmar, under the name 'Burma', despite its' UN recognised name being Myanmar.

What is Australia's reasoning for this? It is based on the question of whether the military regime of Myanmar, not democratically elected, has the legitimacy to change the country's name, particularly without a referendum.

Yet, in the case of Macedonia, Australia holds a completely different position, a double standard if you will, completely disregarding the democratic will of the Macedonian people and in effect enabling a forced, imposed and 'non-democratic' name on Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

So in one case, Australia can completely disregard what the official United Nations recognised name is, claiming to do so on 'principles' supporting democracy, whilst in the other case, Australia refuses to take the same 'principled' position and uses the United Nations recognition as a scapegoat to continue ignoring the issue - which in effect harms Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

[Bill77]

I think the belief of some people that we should enter the EU and NATO by the acronym, until a 'better' time where we can assert our apparent 'sovereignty', is quite naive. Don't you all see what these two organisations are always saying? They want a quick resolution, and they want it soon.

spot on. And this is what the latest villan to some (Milisoski) says about the Temporary name and Gligorovs famous words.

Quote:"And it was (in April 1993), but with the agreement to change the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", for which former President Gligorov made the famous statement that "this is a temporary name, which will be used only two months' . Unfortunately, it still takes temporality, and was the basis for the conclusion of the "Interim Agreement" in 1995. Thus began and reached We have come so "name dispute", which to this day....

well two months has passed many moons ago. If UN can keep the status quo, Eu will have no problem at all.

[Buktop]

Buktop, again you are painting a rosie picture for EU membership and Bulgaria. But on the other hand, you tend to spread doom and gloom for the Macedonian situation evan though during the last 12 months, all we get is positive reports coming out of many international observers.

Positive reports mean that we are improving, not that we are well off. As I have highlighted in my initial post. Why is it it's always doom and gloom, negativity, or some garbage like that. You need to understand our economic position, don't let your pride blind you. Economics is about facts, statistics, not about being proud.

It is clear you are advocating for EU entry.

Now please come out with your answer once and for all and lets move on. There are only Three options. Enter with the Name FYROM or a ulternative suitable name for Greece. Scrap ambition of EU entry. or you are undecided. There are no other options. Its simple as that. Don't give me "the answer is in the Question" reponse. I will make it in a multiple choice format.

A) EU Entry under FYROM or Another Name change that suits Greece

B) No EU entry

C) dont know, undecided

Please pick one.

out of these three I choose B

Though the situation is more complex than these 3 options as I have been trying to explain the entire thread.

[Bill77]

Positive reports mean that we are improving, not that we are well off. As I have highlighted in my initial post. Why is it it's always doom and gloom, negativity, or some garbage like that. You need to understand our economic position, don't let your pride blind you. Economics is about facts, statistics, not about being proud.


out of these three I choose B

Though the situation is more complex than these 3 options as I have been trying to explain the entire thread.

How many Nations are well off? i never sugested we are. But if you expected us to be up there over night, you need a reality check. Signs of Improving is very positive, And they do come from facts, statistics. How many other countries can boast this especialy when you consider this latest world Financial crisis. The best bit about it though, is we are doing it on our own.

Pride? Bloody oath i have pride. But i am also not blind.


Regarding the multiple choice question, There is nothing complex about the options. They are curently the only choice's. Can you or anyone else give me another option?

[Buktop]

How many Nations are well off? i never sugested we are. But if you expected us to be up there over night, you need a reality check. Signs of Improving is very positive, And they do come from facts, statistics. How many other countries can boast this especialy when you consider this latest world Financial crisis. The best bit about it though, is we are doing it on our own.

Pride? Bloody oath i have pride. But i am also not blind.


Regarding the multiple choice question, There is nothing complex about the options. They are curently the only choice's. Can you or anyone else give me another option?

Bill, have you read any of my posts in this thread? I told you it would take time, I told you what projects we needed to focus on and what areas need more improvement.

We are not doing it on our own, don't you get that? All of our resources, gas, oil are imported. We can only manage to produce 70% of the electricity needed to power our country. We are dependent on the port of Solun, and if you don't realize that then there is no point in discussing it.

Ok bill, you are right, the Macedonian government should think like that, A B or C, no alternatives.

[Bill77]

Bill, have you read any of my posts in this thread? I told you it would take time, I told you what projects we needed to focus on and what areas need more improvement.

We are not doing it on our own, don't you get that? All of our resources, gas, oil are imported. We can only manage to produce 70% of the electricity needed to power our country. We are dependent on the port of Solun, and if you don't realize that then there is no point in discussing it.

Ok bill, you are right, the Macedonian government should think like that, A B or C, no alternatives.

Buktop, i have read your many posts. Which is why i think you are pro EU entry. But there is only one way of this hapening and thats option A). Unless there is another option that the Macedonian government or Mathew Nimitz does not know, Please sugest it and you could win the nobel peace prize next year.

Yes, the Government realise the option is out of A or B. Have you read the Milisoski artical Indigin posted recently?

http://star.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2077&stID=14397

all i can see is A or B

I an aware We are dependent on others and need to be self suficiant. You bring up some good points. But that problem will still be there regardless if we are in the EU or not. The whole world has this issue and try to not rely on others.

[Buktop]

Buktop, i have read your many posts. Which is why i think you are pro EU entry. But there is only one way of this hapening and thats option A). Unless there is another option that the Macedonian government or Mathew Nimitz does not know, Please sugest it and you could win the nobel peace prize next year.

Yes, the Government realise the option is out of A or B. Have you read the Milisoski artical Indigin posted recently?

http://star.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2077&stID=14397

all i can see is A or B

I an aware We are dependent on others and need to be self suficiant. You bring up some good points. But that problem will still be there regardless if we are in the EU or not. The whole world has this issue and try to not rely on others.

I admit, I would have liked to see us in EU, but under better circumstances not with the current conditions.

We can only speculate on what the government knows and although your three options are the realistic options as presented right now, I do feel there is something missing, something we overlooked. With the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, there was a clause that removed the unanimous decision criteria from certain aspects of EU policy making. As the EU becomes increasingly dissatisfied with the selfish and corrupt actions of Greece, I feel that eventually the unanimous decision criteria will be removed from the accession process, rendering Greece's veto useless. Again this is speculation, and it will most likely not occur within the next 5-10 years, and who knows by that time the EU may be irrelevant. It is just interesting to note that it is not all black and white, there are shades of gray.

Yes I read the article indigen posted, and you are right, all I see is A or B also.

My point in highlighting our dependence is to show why Greece has so much control over our country. If Macedonia wants to render Greece's position irrelevant and remove themselves from their influence, they should focus on alternative routes as soon as possible.

[Bill77]

I admit, I would have liked to see us in EU, but under better circumstances not with the current conditions.

We can only speculate on what the government knows and although your three options are the realistic options as presented right now, I do feel there is something missing, something we overlooked. With the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, there was a clause that removed the unanimous decision criteria from certain aspects of EU policy making. As the EU becomes increasingly dissatisfied with the selfish and corrupt actions of Greece, I feel that eventually the unanimous decision criteria will be removed from the accession process, rendering Greece's veto useless. Again this is speculation, and it will most likely not occur within the next 5-10 years, and who knows by that time the EU may be irrelevant. It is just interesting to note that it is not all black and white, there are shades of gray.

Yes I read the article indigen posted, and you are right, all I see is A or B also.

My point in highlighting our dependence is to show why Greece has so much control over our country. If Macedonia wants to render Greece's position irrelevant and remove themselves from their influence, they should focus on alternative routes as soon as possible.

Thank you for your answer Buktop. many are in the same boat that we would like to see us in EU, but under better circumstances not with the current conditions.

[Buktop]

Thank you for your answer Buktop. many are in the same boat that we would like to see us in EU, but under better circumstances not with the current conditions.

agreed

[Pelister]

Negotiating our historical identity is not a strategy.

Your support for Western institutions that negate us and have put to Macedonia the same terms Greece have set for us demonstrates your ignorance of the issues, and the bullshit agenda of UMD.

[Buktop]

Negotiating our historical identity is not a strategy.

Your support for Western institutions that negate us and have put to Macedonia the same terms Greece have set for us demonstrates your ignorance of the issues, and the bullshit agenda of UMD.

Paul, I shouldn't even justify this with a response, considering you don't even know how to substantiate an argument...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Buktop, if you had to put the actions, elements, etc of the UMD under scrutiny, what would be the things that you would criticise the most? And do you believe that the UMD have taken the necessary steps to rectify these?

[Buktop]

Buktop, if you had to put the actions, elements, etc of the UMD under scrutiny, what would be the things that you would criticise the most? And do you believe that the UMD have taken the necessary steps to rectify these?

Of course UMD could always perform better, but to tell you the truth, I think they are doing alright. I would like to see some more initiatives concerning the actions of the citizens in the diaspora, but this is a touchy subject as 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations are subject to restrictions concerning elections and lobbying.

This was my post from the other thread.

It is hard to say, only recently have we publicly scrutinized and located the issues within the constitution and legislation within the parliament. I would like to see some sort of attention to this and an attempt to notify the citizens in the diaspora. I think action should be taken on this aspect.

If I had to criticize the UMD, I guess I would say they need to avoid any future controversy by issuing opinion polls to the members/non-members, and then publish the results. I'd say this would effectively eliminate any and all controversy and dissatisfaction concerning the issues raised on this forum.

[Phoenix]

If I had to criticize the UMD, I guess I would say they need to avoid any future controversy by issuing opinion polls to the members/non-members, and then publish the results. I'd say this would effectively eliminate any and all controversy and dissatisfaction concerning the issues raised on this forum.

don't go out on a limb Buktop with your criticism...you must be one happy camper if your only criticism is opinion poll results...

[Rogi]

Are you all trying to say that UMD hasn't done anything good for Macedonia, to the best of its' abilities and resources? I think that's very unfair.