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March 10, 2009
This is my response to ´Istor the Macedonian´ and his article on the 21st of February, ´On Ethnicity´.
First allow me to introduce myself. I am a Macedonian – that is I come from Macedonia, my parents came from Macedonia and their parents came from Macedonia. My ancestors were living in Macedonia long before there was a Greek state, or a Greek nationality, and certainly long before Greece stole 51% of Macedonia from the Macedonian people in 1913.
I now live in a Western country where, when somebody says ´Macedonian´, they are actually talking about someone who isn´t Greek. In fact my Greek friend is sometimes insulted when she states that she is a ´Greek Macedonian´ and finds that this confuses people. The best response I have heard her receive is ´So is your father Macedonian and your mother Greek?´ Most of the world treats me as, and respects me as, a Macedonian. Except Greece.
In his article ´On Ethnicity´, Istor stated that he couldn´t refer to Macedonians as Macedonians because he believed they weren´t Greek. Well Istor – I have to agree with you – I don´t believe Macedonians are Greek either. Further more, I (and most of the world) don´t believe modern Greeks are actually the same ´Greeks´ as the Ancient Greeks! So I will return your favor and refer to Greeks as ´Ex-Turks´ (ETs) or Born-Again Greeks (BAGs). I am not sure which I prefer; maybe I will just label male Greeks as ETs and female ones as BAGs.
Istor stated a number of things about ethnicity; stating it was ´pride´ amongst other things. I am not sure that even he knows what his peculiar definition of ethnicity is. So Istor, lets clarify things and use the dictionary instead, OK? The Oxford Dictionary states that ´Ethnicity´ is:
"Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system"
So let´s look at the concept of race and racial, cultural, religious or linguistic characteristics. A short exploration will show that the Ancient Macedonians share none of those things with the modern Greeks.
Race
A number of studies in the American Journal of Human Genetics – one of the world´s most respected journals contain data from archaeological finds in Ancient Macedonia, as well of the rest of Europe. The Swiss company iGenea, the European subsidiary of the worlds largest Genealogical DNA company – FamilyTreeDNA, has taken this data and put together genetic profiles of ancient peoples based on specific genetic markers. One of these is a specific Ancient Macedonian genetic profile. The Macedonian profile is similar to the Ancient Greek profile – but different enough to be distinct. Genetically, they were a separate people.
In my chromosomes, I carry the same DNA markers that the Ancient Macedonians had. How did I get them? I had to have received them from my mother and she had to have received them from her mother. This makes me more 'Ancient Macedonian' than people without those markers. It also means I am not really something else. No matter how proud I was of Gandhi´s achievements – that does not make me an Indian. This isn´t to say that Gandhi wasn´t a great man – it just makes no difference to my genetic history. I can like Gandhi all I want – but that won´t make me Indian – despite the fact that Gandhi and I can both speak English. Likewise, Alexander the Great was Macedonian – he learned to speak Greek – modern Greeks can worship him all they want, but if they aren´t genetically Macedonian, if they don´t speak Macedonian (a language we have been speaking for more than a thousand years), and they don´t have the culture or religion of the Ancient Macedonians – well frankly, they aren´t Macedonians. They are merely Greeks worshiping their conqueror! The brave Greeks who died at Chaeronea would be rolling in their graves to know that those that proclaim to be their descendants are worshiping the Barbarian Conqueror Alexander, as a Heroic Greek, of all things!
Culture
The Ancient Macedonians had a different culture to the Ancient Greeks. They were called barbarians by the Greeks, who did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. Macedonians lacked the polis culture central to Greek society and they did not stem from the Mycenaean civilization like the Greeks did. Modern Greeks, given their tenuous link to the Ancient Greeks, are even further distanced from Ancient Macedonian culture.
Modern Greeks are a very different culture. The centrality of the monotheistic Greek Orthodox church, the concept of Greek nationalism, the legacies of Turkish domination on their music, traditions, food and language separate them from the rough Ancient Macedonians.
Religion
Modern Greeks are orthodox. Ancient Macedonians were polytheistic. There is very little similarity in beliefs. Greek Orthodoxy went to great lengths to distance themselves from their ´pagan´ past.
Language
Harvard´s Badian and Pennsylvania State´s Borza state that the average Ancient Macedonian could not understand Greek. That the rulers could speak Greek is certain, but not the average Macedonian. Ancient writers made a point of distinguishing the languages of the Macedonians and the Greeks.
Many Modern Greeks are descended from people whose ancestors didn´t speak Greek.
iGenea´s data states that about 2000 years ago the direct Y-Chromosome ancestors of today´s Greeks were very different. While it is likely that about 1/3 of the ancestors spoke Greek, the other 2/3 of them had ancestors that spoke Phoenician, Illyrian and Slavic languages. Even the famous Philhellene Hammond has stated that many of the Modern Greek´s ancestors spoke Albanian.
Despite this lack of similarity to both the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks, many Greeks state that they are one unified indivisible whole – as if their very modern ethnic idealism was shared by all historic figures, including non-Greeks. Modern nationalist Greeks often talk of ´ethnic purity´ based on misinterpreting anthropological data and a heavy dose of propaganda. Of course, the idea of ´ethnic purity´ is laughable in a modern multicultural world.
In fact one Greek nationalist stated to me yesterday that Greece was actually ´ethnically pure´ because it only valued and promoted one culture, despite the fact that there are minorities in Greece. No – that isn´t ethnic purity; that is just plain bigotry! When you start to view your ethnicity as superior to other ethnicities present in your country you are starting on a very dangerous road – at best you are merely a bigot; at worst you could end up with Rwanda or Srebrenica.
Istor stated that Loring Danforth is asking "How can a woman give birth to a Macedonian and a SlavoSkopian boys?" – if he had actually read Dr Danforth´s book, he would know that the question was actually "How can a woman give birth to one Macedonian and one Greek?". See even a respected anthropologist like Danforth refers to Macedonians as Macedonians. The point he was making was that some Macedonians ´buy-in´ to the Greek belief system and identify as Greeks due to the nationalist conditioning that is so pervasive in modern Greek culture.
Istor also stated that "Language is the main objective ethnic indicator" – that is far from true! I speak a number of languages – Japanese, Macedonian and English – but I am neither Japanese nor English! If I lived in Japan – no matter how good my Japanese was – I´d never be seen as Japanese.
Istor stated that a "Macedonian is whoever is proud of that campaign that Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World" – no a Macedonian as defined by the criteria of ethnicity is someone who is biologically Macedonian, has Macedonian culture, Macedonian religion and Macedonian language.
Istor also stated that ´we modern Greeks are as Greek as any ancient or future Greek. Because we are as proud as they were".
One of the biggest fallacies of Greek nationalism is the projection of their modern beliefs in to the heads of historical figures – as if somehow Alexander the Great – rather than spreading Macedonian imperialism at the point of a sarissa, instead was really more concerned with laying the groundwork for the Modern Greek state. As laughable as this is, it is a very common belief amongst nationalist Greeks. One doesn´t need to go far to see pictures of polytheistic Greeks or Macedonians from the BC era juxtaposed with a Modern Greek Christian flag. It is a false association. In fact the last time I remember seeing such an odd juxtaposition was that of the Imperial Roman Eagle with the Nazi flag.
The reality is some Greeks are Macedonians, and some Macedonians are Greeks. This can not be changed no matter how much ultra-nationalists on both sides would like it. Many modern Macedonians, myself included, now have genetic evidence that they are related to the Ancient Macedonians – provided by non interested third parties with the best credentials. Who has the right to say that my grandfather wasn´t my grandfather – I have irrefutable DNA evidence!
I am a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians and I speak the dominant language spoken in Macedonia for the last 1500 years. Who has a better claim to my own ancestors than me? Why would somebody want to claim as an ancestor someone who isn´t related to them?
I have written earlier of the nationalist Greeks juxtaposition of historical figures with modern political Greek symbols and language. I now hope that the reader would allow me to indulge in a juxtaposition of my own: Alexander the Great on the Maury Povich show.
Maury sits there with the yellow envelope with the DNA results and reads:
We´ve checked the DNA results. In the case of Modern Greece - Alexander the Great - you are NOT the father´
At this point Modern Greece cries, while Alexander the Great gets up and break-dances
This is my response to ´Istor the Macedonian´ and his article on the 21st of February, ´On Ethnicity´.
First allow me to introduce myself. I am a Macedonian – that is I come from Macedonia, my parents came from Macedonia and their parents came from Macedonia. My ancestors were living in Macedonia long before there was a Greek state, or a Greek nationality, and certainly long before Greece stole 51% of Macedonia from the Macedonian people in 1913.
I now live in a Western country where, when somebody says ´Macedonian´, they are actually talking about someone who isn´t Greek. In fact my Greek friend is sometimes insulted when she states that she is a ´Greek Macedonian´ and finds that this confuses people. The best response I have heard her receive is ´So is your father Macedonian and your mother Greek?´ Most of the world treats me as, and respects me as, a Macedonian. Except Greece.
In his article ´On Ethnicity´, Istor stated that he couldn´t refer to Macedonians as Macedonians because he believed they weren´t Greek. Well Istor – I have to agree with you – I don´t believe Macedonians are Greek either. Further more, I (and most of the world) don´t believe modern Greeks are actually the same ´Greeks´ as the Ancient Greeks! So I will return your favor and refer to Greeks as ´Ex-Turks´ (ETs) or Born-Again Greeks (BAGs). I am not sure which I prefer; maybe I will just label male Greeks as ETs and female ones as BAGs.
Istor stated a number of things about ethnicity; stating it was ´pride´ amongst other things. I am not sure that even he knows what his peculiar definition of ethnicity is. So Istor, lets clarify things and use the dictionary instead, OK? The Oxford Dictionary states that ´Ethnicity´ is:
"Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system"
So let´s look at the concept of race and racial, cultural, religious or linguistic characteristics. A short exploration will show that the Ancient Macedonians share none of those things with the modern Greeks.
Race
A number of studies in the American Journal of Human Genetics – one of the world´s most respected journals contain data from archaeological finds in Ancient Macedonia, as well of the rest of Europe. The Swiss company iGenea, the European subsidiary of the worlds largest Genealogical DNA company – FamilyTreeDNA, has taken this data and put together genetic profiles of ancient peoples based on specific genetic markers. One of these is a specific Ancient Macedonian genetic profile. The Macedonian profile is similar to the Ancient Greek profile – but different enough to be distinct. Genetically, they were a separate people.
In my chromosomes, I carry the same DNA markers that the Ancient Macedonians had. How did I get them? I had to have received them from my mother and she had to have received them from her mother. This makes me more 'Ancient Macedonian' than people without those markers. It also means I am not really something else. No matter how proud I was of Gandhi´s achievements – that does not make me an Indian. This isn´t to say that Gandhi wasn´t a great man – it just makes no difference to my genetic history. I can like Gandhi all I want – but that won´t make me Indian – despite the fact that Gandhi and I can both speak English. Likewise, Alexander the Great was Macedonian – he learned to speak Greek – modern Greeks can worship him all they want, but if they aren´t genetically Macedonian, if they don´t speak Macedonian (a language we have been speaking for more than a thousand years), and they don´t have the culture or religion of the Ancient Macedonians – well frankly, they aren´t Macedonians. They are merely Greeks worshiping their conqueror! The brave Greeks who died at Chaeronea would be rolling in their graves to know that those that proclaim to be their descendants are worshiping the Barbarian Conqueror Alexander, as a Heroic Greek, of all things!
Culture
The Ancient Macedonians had a different culture to the Ancient Greeks. They were called barbarians by the Greeks, who did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. Macedonians lacked the polis culture central to Greek society and they did not stem from the Mycenaean civilization like the Greeks did. Modern Greeks, given their tenuous link to the Ancient Greeks, are even further distanced from Ancient Macedonian culture.
Modern Greeks are a very different culture. The centrality of the monotheistic Greek Orthodox church, the concept of Greek nationalism, the legacies of Turkish domination on their music, traditions, food and language separate them from the rough Ancient Macedonians.
Religion
Modern Greeks are orthodox. Ancient Macedonians were polytheistic. There is very little similarity in beliefs. Greek Orthodoxy went to great lengths to distance themselves from their ´pagan´ past.
Language
Harvard´s Badian and Pennsylvania State´s Borza state that the average Ancient Macedonian could not understand Greek. That the rulers could speak Greek is certain, but not the average Macedonian. Ancient writers made a point of distinguishing the languages of the Macedonians and the Greeks.
Many Modern Greeks are descended from people whose ancestors didn´t speak Greek.
iGenea´s data states that about 2000 years ago the direct Y-Chromosome ancestors of today´s Greeks were very different. While it is likely that about 1/3 of the ancestors spoke Greek, the other 2/3 of them had ancestors that spoke Phoenician, Illyrian and Slavic languages. Even the famous Philhellene Hammond has stated that many of the Modern Greek´s ancestors spoke Albanian.
Despite this lack of similarity to both the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks, many Greeks state that they are one unified indivisible whole – as if their very modern ethnic idealism was shared by all historic figures, including non-Greeks. Modern nationalist Greeks often talk of ´ethnic purity´ based on misinterpreting anthropological data and a heavy dose of propaganda. Of course, the idea of ´ethnic purity´ is laughable in a modern multicultural world.
In fact one Greek nationalist stated to me yesterday that Greece was actually ´ethnically pure´ because it only valued and promoted one culture, despite the fact that there are minorities in Greece. No – that isn´t ethnic purity; that is just plain bigotry! When you start to view your ethnicity as superior to other ethnicities present in your country you are starting on a very dangerous road – at best you are merely a bigot; at worst you could end up with Rwanda or Srebrenica.
Istor stated that Loring Danforth is asking "How can a woman give birth to a Macedonian and a SlavoSkopian boys?" – if he had actually read Dr Danforth´s book, he would know that the question was actually "How can a woman give birth to one Macedonian and one Greek?". See even a respected anthropologist like Danforth refers to Macedonians as Macedonians. The point he was making was that some Macedonians ´buy-in´ to the Greek belief system and identify as Greeks due to the nationalist conditioning that is so pervasive in modern Greek culture.
Istor also stated that "Language is the main objective ethnic indicator" – that is far from true! I speak a number of languages – Japanese, Macedonian and English – but I am neither Japanese nor English! If I lived in Japan – no matter how good my Japanese was – I´d never be seen as Japanese.
Istor stated that a "Macedonian is whoever is proud of that campaign that Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World" – no a Macedonian as defined by the criteria of ethnicity is someone who is biologically Macedonian, has Macedonian culture, Macedonian religion and Macedonian language.
Istor also stated that ´we modern Greeks are as Greek as any ancient or future Greek. Because we are as proud as they were".
One of the biggest fallacies of Greek nationalism is the projection of their modern beliefs in to the heads of historical figures – as if somehow Alexander the Great – rather than spreading Macedonian imperialism at the point of a sarissa, instead was really more concerned with laying the groundwork for the Modern Greek state. As laughable as this is, it is a very common belief amongst nationalist Greeks. One doesn´t need to go far to see pictures of polytheistic Greeks or Macedonians from the BC era juxtaposed with a Modern Greek Christian flag. It is a false association. In fact the last time I remember seeing such an odd juxtaposition was that of the Imperial Roman Eagle with the Nazi flag.
The reality is some Greeks are Macedonians, and some Macedonians are Greeks. This can not be changed no matter how much ultra-nationalists on both sides would like it. Many modern Macedonians, myself included, now have genetic evidence that they are related to the Ancient Macedonians – provided by non interested third parties with the best credentials. Who has the right to say that my grandfather wasn´t my grandfather – I have irrefutable DNA evidence!
I am a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians and I speak the dominant language spoken in Macedonia for the last 1500 years. Who has a better claim to my own ancestors than me? Why would somebody want to claim as an ancestor someone who isn´t related to them?
I have written earlier of the nationalist Greeks juxtaposition of historical figures with modern political Greek symbols and language. I now hope that the reader would allow me to indulge in a juxtaposition of my own: Alexander the Great on the Maury Povich show.
Maury sits there with the yellow envelope with the DNA results and reads:
We´ve checked the DNA results. In the case of Modern Greece - Alexander the Great - you are NOT the father´
At this point Modern Greece cries, while Alexander the Great gets up and break-dances
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