Ethnogenesis

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  • Delodephius
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 736

    Ethnogenesis

    Ethnogenesis literally means "the creation of an ethnicity". I had a question "What kind of forms of ethnogenesis exist?" on my final exam in Introduction to Slavic Studies. I answered that an ethnic group can be formed by joining of smaller social groups, like families, which have common interests, goals or needs which they cannot achieve by themselves. The simplest form of an ethnic group would be a tribe. Another factor for joining of groups which results in creation of an ethnicity (over an extended period of time, not immediately; and the creation of an ethnicity is a result of the joining, not the cause) is a common trait, for example language, religion, culture, common history, geographical proximity, etc. or mostly a combination of some or all of these triats, mostly all because ethnic groups are usually formed among smaller groups living next to each other that share many of the traits. But it is not necessarily so. For example, language does not necessarily have to be the joining factor, and in many times it wasn't. Many ethnic groups were multilingual and many of their members were polyglotic. Take the Yugoslavians for instance. The Chinese, Turks, Indians, Indonesians, etc. and their sub-ethnic groups as well. In cities around the world throughout history many times during a formation of a city-state various language groups merged under one umbrella ethnicity.
    Which brings us to the next form of ethnogenesis: merging of already existing ethnic groups. The joining of various peoples that arrived in America, the ancestors of many European ethnic groups in the past were of different ethnicity, for example the Poles, the Czechs, the Germans, etc. These groups were formed when several other ethnic groups merged in some point in history to form one greater ethnic group, sometimes preserving their local distinctiveness, but nonetheless, you would never hear from a Saxon or a Bavarian that he/she is not an ethnic German.
    Third form of ethnogenesis is the splitting of an already existing ethnic group. First example that comes into my mind would be the Bosnians which today exist as three ethnic groups which split from one another due to religious differences. Ethnic groups can split for many reasons, most of the time these reasons are political and motivated by a few number of individuals, which also could have been done in the previous form, that is of merging of ethnic groups. After a period when the initial motivation to keep an ethnic group in one piece is diminished, that ethnic group may again split into parts, though not necessarily into the same parts that existed when it was formed, and mostly it is not.

    Whether an ethnogenesis is lead by few individuals or by the majority of the members of the ethnic groups themselves, whether by free will or by force, any kind of ethnic groups is natural, because it's nature is to be an ethnic group. By it's definition it cannot be fake, same way a language cannot be fake either, since no thing of the psychical (not physical) world cannot.

    Whether someone dislikes it or not, the modern Greek ethnicity is real and natural, regardless of the process of its creation, it's current construction or how crazy or chaotic it may be. That gives us information about the nature of this ethnicity and a possibility to examine it.
    Macedonian ethnicity is equally real and natural. It takes only one person to form an ethnicity (and let us not forget, in some parts of the world there are ethnic groups which only have one member left). Ethnicity is based on one's self-declaration and this ignores all other outside factors, like history, language, culture, religion. I'm not talking here about switching one's ethnicity about which I spoke in another thread, but that is another but a very similar situation.
    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.
  • makedonin
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1668

    #2
    Good elaboration Slovak.

    Most certainly Ethnic group is formed of different sub-cultural groups with which are similarly related to each other and have long lasting enemy.

    The enemy as a factor of grouping is the most common for forming an ethnic group. It defines the groups goal in a thighter perspective for survival
    Last edited by makedonin; 03-02-2009, 05:24 PM.
    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

    Comment

    • Coolski
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 747

      #3
      Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
      Whether someone dislikes it or not, the modern Greek ethnicity is real and natural, regardless of the process of its creation, it's current construction or how crazy or chaotic it may be. That gives us information about the nature of this ethnicity and a possibility to examine it.
      This is an interesting thread Slovak, however it's not such a surprising fact. The construction of the modern Greek ethnicity is an example of one being pushed by a few individuals. I would argue that an ethnicity which is created by a few individuals with the aim of influencing a mass of people is the less natural case. If it were driven by the people themselves that would be more natural in my opinion.

      The other interesting point about the development of the latest greek ethnicity, is that it is still under construction, which still opens a chance to scrutinize it, especially when the interests involved in cementing this ethnic group directly oppose the interests of the Macedonian ethnic group. It is from this angle where I see justification in our scruitiny of the neo-Hellenic identity. This ethnicity involves the psychological conditioning to hate ethnic Macedonians (among other ethnic groups which are being merged in their ethnic project). This is why so many people present the greek ethnicity as a fake one. Not because it won't turn out to be an ethnicity on its own, with an eventual common culture, common blood relations (mixed marriages) etc., but because it is still an ethnicity under construction.
      - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
      - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3812

        #4
        Tomas said;
        Whether someone dislikes it or not, the modern Greek ethnicity is real and natural, regardless of the process of its creation, it's current construction or how crazy or chaotic it may be. That gives us information about the nature of this ethnicity and a possibility to examine it.

        I'm sorry but I disagree with you that modern "greeks" ethnicity is a natural occurance. Considering the facts (I know you said regardless of history,,,however I do not think you should disregard it either) their culture was invented for them as well as their history. Plain and simple. There should not be any coddleling the "greeks" sensitivities. To go from Romeika to Hellene in one day due to an Englishman and his buddies writing poetry does not make it legit.

        There is a difference between them and us. We did not have any outsiders come and tell us we're Macedonians. We did not have the luxury of a Lord Byron writing BS poetry about how Nikola Karev was Filip II incarnate like he did for the Albanian Marco Botsaris in comparing him to King Leonidas. Self-declaring is one thing. An actual culture and customs and a fluid unforced language (without re-creating an ancient one like Korais did to look good to his philhellene buddies )are things that make an ethnicity.

        I won't deny that they exist. They can live in their dream bubble of a nation until it pops on them. However I deny their awkward claims to alot of their supposed history and made up cultural continuation for over millenias.
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

        Comment

        • Delodephius
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 736

          #5
          When it comes to ethnogenesis TM, there is no such thing as legit and ilegit. All forms of ethnogenesis are natural and perfectly in harmony with the rules that describe them.
          Also, culture and language are not static and can change in various spans of time. In a minute possibly. Ethnicity in the same manner is not static but it is in constant flux, mostly because nothing in the universe is static hence the effects of the outer world have direct consequence on how members of one ethnicity describe their ethnicity based on the flowing reality in which they momentarily find themselves.
          Last edited by Delodephius; 03-02-2009, 06:34 PM.
          अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
          उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
          This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
          But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

          Comment

          • TrueMacedonian
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 3812

            #6
            Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
            When it comes to ethnogenesis TM, there is no such thing as legit and ilegit. All forms of ethnogenesis are natural and perfectly in harmony with the rules that describe them.
            Also, culture and language are not static and can change in various spans of time. In a minute possibly. Ethnicity in the same manner is not static but it is in constant flux, mostly because nothing in the universe is static hence the effects of the outer world have direct consequence on how members of one ethnicity describe their ethnicity based on the flowing reality in which they momentarily find themselves.

            This is perception. However reality dictates another form of perception. Appropriation of anothers culture through usurpation, denial of heritage and history, and to play connect the dots with history when words like "Hellene, Hellenic, Byzantine, Greek, Helleno-Christian, and Greekness" and to call it 'Hellenism' is not a natural occurance. It is staged. It is political. It is falsification of true history to re-create and usurp cultural identity.
            I agree that language is not static and cultures may fluctuate. But there is no denying the facts about todays imposter Hellene. When it takes a German to re-create you history and culture I'm sorry then it is fake.
            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #7
              It is falsification of true history to re-create and usurp cultural identity.
              And that is a process in ethnogenesis.

              When it takes a German to re-create you history and culture I'm sorry then it is fake.
              How? I mean, what is the difference if you re-create something or someone else? And how can you re-create something that already exists? You can misrepresent something, but fake it? Something that is intellectual and not material?
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Coolski
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 747

                #8
                The creation of any ethnicity will turn out to be 'legitimate' with respect to the definitions of ethnicity right, because eventually the constructed ethnicity will become a reality. Eg. today we see the modern Greeks as a segregated combination of ethnic albanians, macedonians, turks, vlachs and roma right? In time they will intermarry and loose their original ethnic origins and take on a new identity. They will have the same language, culture, blood (intermarriage) and religion (which was how they were convinced to join in the first place).

                The big difference in my opinion is whether this can be considered natural. I would say that a natural formation of an ethnic group is done so by the people themselves, not by a few individuals or an institution. If you consider the creation of the modern Greek identity natural, then by the same philosophy you would have to consider nuclear power plants natural because human beings create them and they are all part of the natural world. In fact, you would have to call everything that has ever happened on earth, natural. I don't think that's the case.

                As I said earlier. Greece is trying to forge an ethnic identity by imposing it and influencing people, not by a natural progression of its own people. If there was no Greek government you wouldn't see the formation of the greek identity as it exists today. It it is still under construction and there are still many points of vulnerability and there should be no inhibition on our part to expose these weaknesses and protect the ethnic Macedonians from this process, because

                1. The modern greek ethnogenesis is not natural.
                2. It threatens the existence of our own ethnic Macedonian group due to its aggressive nature.

                Nobody should sit by and let this happen.
                Last edited by Coolski; 03-02-2009, 07:07 PM.
                - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
                - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #9
                  then by the same philosophy you would have to consider nuclear power plants natural because human beings create them and they are all part of the natural world.In fact, you would have to call everything that has ever happened on Earth, natural.
                  I think you are the first person to actually figure out my way of thinking without me saying it. And I'm not being sarcastic.

                  2. It threatens the existence of our own ethnic Macedonian group due to its aggressive nature.
                  From my cold-hearted objective side that doesn't matter in science. That's just another thing from me to observe and examine. But luckily I have another side.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3812

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                    And that is a process in ethnogenesis.


                    How? I mean, what is the difference if you re-create something or someone else? And how can you re-create something that already exists? You can misrepresent something, but fake it? Something that is intellectual and not material?

                    Tomas you are philosophizing something organic with in-organic modern "greek" consciousness. We have to levy the interpretation of history because as you even know this is in the eye of the beholder. Todays modern "greek" feels a connection to the ancient Hellene city-states through language (not a good indicator of ethnicity at all) and culture. The latter being something that can be manipulated to foster an ideal world to re-create. Here's what I mean http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...2861#post12861

                    So I beg to differ on the default logic that makes ancient Hellenes a superior race of people because Humboldt said so which the modern "greek" used as a basis for ethnicity which in turn affected Macedonia and the Macedonians as well as many other peoples of different cultures and backgrounds.

                    As for Germans and English and French and whatever else sponsered this new class of neo-hellenic culture it is they who created the dream nation todays imposter hellene lives in. One in which everyone is a "greek" and perfect. Once you step out of line and say you're an Albanian or Vlach or Macedonian then you better be ready for the mistreatment that awaits you. Science or not this is fact.
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Coolski
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 747

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                      From my cold-hearted objective side that doesn't matter in science. That's just another thing from me to observe and examine.
                      Exactly. The key point here is that from a scientific perspective 'whatever happens happens' and it's all observational and analytical, but from our Macedonian perspective, our survival means the destabilization of the new group who's fundamental requirement involves the destruction of our group.

                      This is where it is in our interests to point out all of the holes in the formation of the modern Greek identity so as to weaken its attempts to eliminate us. If the vulnerability lies in the fact that the new ethnicity is still in its early stages, where a strong ethnic Macedonian presence still exists in 'modern Greeks' from northern Greece, then that is what ethnic Macedonians will have to use to reverse the process. If the vulnerability lies in the fact that there is clear evidence that the modern Greek identity has not cemented, it is our clear interest to disturb it.

                      From a scientific observer who reads articles about the formation of modern Greece, they can view the article as a Macedonian survival instinct. From a reader who reads an article about the un-natural formation of Greek identity, it is about changing their perspective.
                      Last edited by Coolski; 03-02-2009, 07:56 PM.
                      - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
                      - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

                      Comment

                      • Pelister
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2742

                        #12
                        I heard the game of Grid-Iron described by an academic a few weeks ago as an "ethnic American game". It took a couple hundred years to get where it is today, but there it is.

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