Salvanos (1925) and Penelope Delta (1937)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here are the thoughts of some more Greeks of the early to mid 20th century, that, along with Melas and Dragoumis, also confirm the existence of a Macedonian identity and language.

Salvanos, Greek Military, considered 50-75% of any given village in western (Greek-occupied) Macedonia to be peopled by Macedonians (Makedones), who are not concerned with (imposed) nationality. However, those that do opt to succumb to the propaganda of either the imposed Greek or Bulgarian 'nationality' are called fanatics by the writer. The normal one's remained Macedonian.






Penelope Delta is a Greek writer that assisted the Greek cause of usurpation, nevertheless, even she cannot evade the truth, and despite the so-called 'mixture' or influence of the balkan 'nations', nearly all of the people spoke one tongue and it was called Macedonian. This clear fact signifies where the strength in terms of native characteristics and culture rested for the Macedonians. It seems that the best some Greek writers can do to scrape something from the bottom of the bowl is making reference to the Macedonian language in a manner which suggests a greater Greek influence than reality demonstrates. Perhaps she obtained this information from her boyfriend and man in hiding with whom she was having an affair, Ion Dragoumis, who is cited by Karakasidou as saying almost exactly the same thing, ie; that Macedonian is a blend of Slavic and Greek, which is completely false.

Macedonia was then a mixture of all Balkan nations. Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Serbs, Albanians, Christians and Muslims, lived higgledy-piggledy under the heavy yoke of the Turks. Their language was the same, Macedonian, also a blend of Slav and Greek, mixed with Turkish words. As in the Byzantine era, the populations were so mixed that it was difficult to tell apart a Greek from a Bulgarian -the two dominant races. Their only national consciousness was the Macedonian one.

When though Bulgarians declared their religious independence and, in Constantinople, the Exarch was recognized as the head of the Bulgarian Church instead of the Patriarch, and when the 1872 Synod [of the Patriarchate] declared the Bulgarians schismatic, Macedonia was divided in Patriarchate Greeks and Exarchate Bulgarians, and so were divided the people of the same area, the same village -even the same family.

The Macedonians have been robbed and cheated by the Greeks and Bulgars, the Macedonians need to protect their history from all the wolves.

[Risto the Great]

Great post SoM.
But I am sick of the suggestion of Macedonian being a blend of "Greek and Slav" with a bit of Turkish. I accept the Turkish loanwords. But cannot accept anything more than an insignificant Greek influence (probably via the Turkish route). There were none around and it is a distortion of reality.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is an inflation of a particular point that tries and draws the intended readers (Greeks) into some fantasy Greek connection. I have no doubt that the 'Greek' influence they are talking about is restricted to a few verbs and nouns like the rest of the Balkan languages.

I have no doubt that Dragoumis, Melas, Delta and Salvanos considered the Macedonian language distinct and unintelligible to Greeks, which it in fact is, and all written evidence of the language in the south of Macedonia such as the Konikovo Gospel, the works of Shapkarev, etc can testify to this fact. It is nowhere near 'Greek' in this respect.

I think what needs to be focused on mostly is the fact that all of the above Greek 'heroes' recognized the Macedonians as a distinct people during the first half of the 20th century, and they call them Macedonians (Makedones) and their language Macedonian (Makedonika).

That very fact demonstrates how illegal and immoral the Macedonian name issue is today where it concerns Greece's racist behaviour.

[Pelister]

It is an inflation of a particular point that tries and draws the intended readers (Greeks) into some fantasy Greek connection. I have no doubt that the 'Greek' influence they are talking about is restricted to a few verbs and nouns like the rest of the Balkan languages.

I have no doubt that Dragoumis, Melas, Delta and Salvanos considered the Macedonian language distinct and unintelligible to Greeks, which it in fact is, and all written evidence of the language in the south of Macedonia such as the Konikovo Gospel, the works of Shapkarev, etc can testify to this fact. It is nowhere near 'Greek' in this respect.

I think what needs to be focused on mostly is the fact that all of the above Greek 'heroes' recognized the Macedonians as a distinct people during the first half of the 20th century, and they call them Macedonians (Makedones) and their language Macedonian (Makedonika).

That very fact demonstrates how illegal and immoral the Macedonian name issue is today where it concerns Greece's racist behaviour.

That is precisely the point, SoM. Greece's position is illegal, and immoral, and illegitimate.

This just shows that the Greeks did not believe they were Macedonians, and that the Macedonians knew they were neither Greeks nor Bulgarians.

Note that she uses the phrase "pure Greek consciousness". I find this interesting, because this is not the same as saying "they are Greeks", which once again suggests that the elusive "ethnic Greek" is still as elusive as ever. Furthermore, this "consciousness" she writes has been "strengthened" by Greek propaganda in the region which also suggests that she is not talking about a person who is ethnically Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonia was then a mixture of all Balkan nations. Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Serbs, Albanians, Christians and Muslims, lived higgledy-piggledy under the heavy yoke of the Turks. Their language was the same, Macedonian, also a blend of Slav and Greek, mixed with Turkish words. As in the Byzantine era, the populations were so mixed that it was difficult to tell apart a Greek from a Bulgarian -the two dominant races. Their only national consciousness was the Macedonian one.

If everybody spoke Macedonian and had a Macedonian consciousness, the start of the paragraph coloured in blue merely causes unnecessary confusion. Macedonian was not taught in Patriarch or Exarch schools, so how did everybody feel and speak Macedonian, if they were what the text in blue tries to suggest? The truth is, the text in blue is only partly true, the cited nations do live in Macedonia but so do the Macedonians, which is why the others speak the Macedonian language. And while most of the other peoples had assistance from their respective 'motherlands' outside of Macedonian territory, the Macedonians had only Macedonia.

[Pelister]

It confuses the picture, entirely, and just to show you how the part you have outlined in blue, creeps its way into Western discourse about the ethnography of Macedonia, and how historians misrepresent entirely the state of things in Macedonia, there is this.

Ottoman Macedonia (including Constantinople) possesses one of the most cosmopolitan populations in the world, numbering 6,000,000, of whom 70 per cent are Turks, Greeks and Albanians, while the remaining 30 percent includes Serbs, Bulgars, Vlachs, Armenians, Italians, Magyars, Gypsies, Slavs, Jews and Circassians. No one nationality constitutes more than 30 per cent of the whole

p.205 N. Dwight Harris, The Macedonian Question and the Balkan War. This jerkoff refuses to refer to Macedonians as a separate nationality.

And yet we have this:

In 1921, a Greek government census of occupied Macedonia revealed over 500,000 Christian Macedonians.

[Diabolical]

If everybody spoke Macedonian and had a Macedonian consciousness, the start of the paragraph coloured in blue merely causes unnecessary confusion. Macedonian was not taught in Patriarch or Exarch schools, so how did everybody feel and speak Macedonian, if they were what the text in blue tries to suggest? The truth is, the text in blue is only partly true, the cited nations do live in Macedonia but so do the Macedonians, which is why the others speak the Macedonian language. And while most of the other peoples had assistance from their respective 'motherlands' outside of Macedonian territory, the Macedonians had only Macedonia.

SoM, were there any other schools in Macedonia? Or was it just Patriarch teaching Greek and Excharcate (sp?) teaching Bulgarian?

[Giorikas]

Here are the thoughts of some more Greeks of the early to mid 20th century, that, along with Melas and Dragoumis, also confirm the existence of a Macedonian identity and language.

Salvanos, Greek Military, considered 50-75% of any given village in western (Greek-occupied) Macedonia to be peopled by Macedonians (Makedones), who are not concerned with (imposed) nationality. However, those that do opt to succumb to the propaganda of either the imposed Greek or Bulgarian 'nationality' are called fanatics by the writer. The normal one's remained Macedonian.






Penelope Delta is a Greek writer that assisted the Greek cause of usurpation, nevertheless, even she cannot evade the truth, and despite the so-called 'mixture' or influence of the balkan 'nations', nearly all of the people spoke one tongue and it was called Macedonian. This clear fact signifies where the strength in terms of native characteristics and culture rested for the Macedonians. It seems that the best some Greek writers can do to scrape something from the bottom of the bowl is making reference to the Macedonian language in a manner which suggests a greater Greek influence than reality demonstrates. Perhaps she obtained this information from her boyfriend and man in hiding with whom she was having an affair, Ion Dragoumis, who is cited by Karakasidou as saying almost exactly the same thing, ie; that Macedonian is a blend of Slavic and Greek, which is completely false.



The Macedonians have been robbed and cheated by the Greeks and Bulgars, the Macedonians need to protect their history from all the wolves.

Hello SOM,

This text is open to interpretation. Referring to the other thread were we are discussing about this topic. I claimed there to find it perfectly understandable and plausable that anyone looking at a barrel from fierce Cretans on horses would simply call himself 'Macedonian'. No hassle (hopefully) from Greeks for being for example Bulgarian. They knew in that case the consequences: they will kill you, or at leat burn your village, loot it and rape your wife. Because those things were happening then. Is it impossible that they maintained that for security reasons ( or even after knowing the anti-Bulgarian sentiments after Macedonia became part of Greece) ? Not to me.

This text you provided seems to agree with that:

'Those indifferent to nationality being concerned only with maintaining their lives and livelyhoods' 'The latter call themselves Makedones'. The makedones were the ones indifferent to nationality. It really fits completely with what I said.

Now, I made those statements to counter the suggestion by you that all living in (Greek) Macedonia were Macedonians per definition, same way as you identify and even fighting for Bulgarians or Greeks, they were still ...Macedonians.
There are different ways of looking at this above example is one of them.

[Giorikas]

If everybody spoke Macedonian and had a Macedonian consciousness, the start of the paragraph coloured in blue merely causes unnecessary confusion. Macedonian was not taught in Patriarch or Exarch schools, so how did everybody feel and speak Macedonian, if they were what the text in blue tries to suggest? The truth is, the text in blue is only partly true, the cited nations do live in Macedonia but so do the Macedonians, which is why the others speak the Macedonian language. And while most of the other peoples had assistance from their respective 'motherlands' outside of Macedonian territory, the Macedonians had only Macedonia.

Do you honestly never wonder why you seldom see Macedonians mentioned seperately as seperate ethnic group ? Do you really not see that Macedonian is used in a regional sense ? A Greek could be a Macedonian as opposed to for example a Cretan. A Turk coud be a Macedonian as opposed from a Turk from Cyprus, a Jew could be a Macedonian, as opposed to a Jew from Germany. Now why do we read each time about Greek Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, Turkish, or Muslim Macedonians, Jewish Macedonians, Vlach Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, but never ... Macedonian Macedonians ... Why do you think that is ?

[osiris]

giorikarse do you ever wonder why a bunch of wankers like you can call your hellnes with a straight face. the fact is everbody who visitd the balkans alreday had preconceived notion of what they would find, and thats exactly what most found. albanian speakers who were greeks and macedonians who the famous salad macedoine.dont you ever get tired of defending the indfensible what is it with you neo hllnes that drives you so maniacally to deny thsoe of us who are of macedonia any rights.

[Soldier of Macedon]

'The latter call themselves Makedones'. The makedones were the ones indifferent to nationality. It really fits completely with what I said.

And the one's that sided with one of the so-called "nationalities" were called FANATICS. Hhmm, so that means the only normal one's are the Makedones? Now that fits.

And this dribble is the best you have......

Do you honestly never wonder why you seldom see Macedonians mentioned seperately as seperate ethnic group ? Do you really not see that Macedonian is used in a regional sense ? A Greek could be a Macedonian as opposed to for example a Cretan. A Turk coud be a Macedonian as opposed from a Turk from Cyprus, a Jew could be a Macedonian, as opposed to a Jew from Germany. Now why do we read each time about Greek Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, Turkish, or Muslim Macedonians, Jewish Macedonians, Vlach Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, but never ... Macedonian Macedonians ... Why do you think that is ?

Against this.....

If everybody spoke Macedonian and had a Macedonian consciousness, the start of the paragraph coloured in blue merely causes unnecessary confusion. Macedonian was not taught in Patriarch or Exarch schools, so how did everybody feel and speak Macedonian, if they were what the text in blue tries to suggest? The truth is, the text in blue is only partly true, the cited nations do live in Macedonia but so do the Macedonians, which is why the others speak the Macedonian language. And while most of the other peoples had assistance from their respective 'motherlands' outside of Macedonian territory, the Macedonians had only Macedonia.

THEY IDENTIFIED AS MACEDONIANS, THEY CALLED THEIR LANGUAGE MACEDONIAN - ACCORDING TO THESE GREEKS.

Sorry Giorikas, your lies are obvious and your suggestions just don't make sense.

[TrueMacedonian]

Do you honestly never wonder why you seldom see Macedonians mentioned seperately as seperate ethnic group ? Do you really not see that Macedonian is used in a regional sense ? A Greek could be a Macedonian as opposed to for example a Cretan. A Turk coud be a Macedonian as opposed from a Turk from Cyprus, a Jew could be a Macedonian, as opposed to a Jew from Germany. Now why do we read each time about Greek Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, Turkish, or Muslim Macedonians, Jewish Macedonians, Vlach Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, but never ... Macedonian Macedonians ... Why do you think that is ?

I'll tell you why(too bad you're banned because I would have liked to have seen a response from you) due to the heavy propaganda machine perpetrated by all sides of Macedonia (especially Bulgaria who had a head start on New Hellas and Serbia). You see things through a "greek" perspective in which you were taught that you have a cultural continuity that stretches all the way back to the ancient times. I won't get into the falseness of your plastic culture and society. I have tired out that subject already and you can read all about it yourself in this particular section of the forum.
But you see things on Macedonia as black and white (like the bulgars would love for everyone to see it as). But what about the grey areas? Why is it that we have people like Gladstone who does say "Macedonia for the Macedonians" or Dr.Cvijic who states that Macedonians are "neither Serb or Bulgar, but Macedonian". The Royal Geographical Society of England (In which scholars,royalty,and etc are part of)in 1906 published a piece on Macedonia in which they state:
"...and that the stress laid by rival claimants on linguistic and historical considerations has created a mass of false opinion in Europe, which is not shared in the country itself. Except in certain frontier districts, like Razlog on the one side, or the lower Vistritza valley on the other, the population is essentially Macedonian, and only accidentally or temporarily Bulgar or Greek; and beyond that fact let us admit at once that we know uncommonly little about it.

As we all know we can look back on tons of books written in the 19th century that give a perspective from the 3 major propagators of the region. And sometimes even your propagators admit the existence of a seperate Macedonian ethnicity with a seperate language. Of course they are really ethnically "greek" But the fact is you are taught in YOUR schools that we were anything but Macedonians. This "geographical identification" was born in modern "greece" and Bulgaria during the peaked times of propaganda. So basically what you continue to serve is the propaganda of the 19th century. Too bad for you that today in occupied Aegean Macedonia there are Macedonians(not the 'hellene' kind either ).

Sorry for the long post. But when we talk about Macedonia the Black and White areas are too short of a given explanation. The Grey area has much too much going on.

[Diabolical]

SoM and TrueMacedonian, are you historians? (if not you should be!!!) There's a few of you on this forum which I think are very capable and should definitely publish a book on Macedonian history. lol just my thoughts.

[Mr. MASO]

SoM and TrueMacedonian, are you historians? (if not you should be!!!) There's a few of you on this forum which I think are very capable and should definitely publish a book on Macedonian history. lol just my thoughts.

I second that, Use both bring so much into this form

[Soldier of Macedon]

There are a number of bright people here who have a good sense of understanding where it concerns history and the relevant circumstances of the periods discussed. Here's the thing though, after a while there comes a time where the cyclic arguments with people like Giorikas grow boring and only halt any progress towards the truth. I ask myself, do I intend to go in circles with this fool, repeating the same arguments time and again, only for this clown to still imply that our people are apparent 'Bulgarians' or "Greeks" 6 months down the track? Absolutely not. Free speech is one thing, the continual denial of the identity of another person is simply racist.

Many Macedonian websites allow for this kind of garbage and filth to spread itself from within like a disease, but this isn't one of those places. This slimeball has no intention other than taking us for a ride and keeping us away from progress. Any response will be filled with the same garbage, he will keep telling us what we are despite what we tell him about ourselves.

So long as the MTO exists, this place will never be a platform for the promotion of such garbage propaganda.