Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of their People!

[Bratot]

Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of their People, in The National Geographic Magazine. Volume XLVIII, No. 7-12, July- December, 1925.



And now these ppl will claim 'GREEK-MACEDONIAN' descent?








"Minorities in Greece" by Richard Clogg, 2002, page 129.



The core of the refugee population settled in Attica and Macedonia. The official refugee population per region in 1928 was as follows (number of refugees and percent of the refugee population):

Macedonia: 638,253 52.2% (with 270,000 in Thessaloniki alone)

306193 25.1% Greece West. Thraki 107607 8.8% Eastern Islands. Aegean Thessaly 56613 4.6% 34659 2.8% 33900 2.8% Crete Peloponnisos Epirus 28362 2.3% 8179 0.7% 4782 0.4% Cyclades islands Ionian 3301 0.3%
Total 1.221.849 100%

http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/corpora/pi/content.html?c=9&t=3,3997

It is impossible in Greece to quantify their number, but obviously, they are much more numerous in this country than are in Turkey. Greece recognizes only religious and nonethnic minorities.

Thus, the Albanians, the Macedonians and the Turks that are Christian Orthodox, do not appear in official statistics, which are not reliable in any event. However, despite the ethnic mixing that has occurred since the population exchanges at the beginning of the 20th century, one can estimate that nearly 800 000 are Karamanites in Greece, a geat portin of which has been hellenised. In fact, a former president of the Greek republic, was a Karamanite.

http://www.istanbulguide.net/istguide/people/ethnies/turcsortho/grece.htm

As the Bishop of Florina (Lerin) Augostinos Kandiotis once said:

"If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today."

[TerraNova]

T

It says that slavic-speaking population self identifies as Greek(Ellinofrones) ,Bulgarian (Bulgarofrones) and a big part does NOT care about his nationality..so calls itself just Macedonian (!!!)

Is this a document which supports your beliefs...?

The core of the refugee population settled in Attica and Macedonia. The official refugee population per region in 1928 was as follows (number of refugees and percent of the refugee population):

Macedonia: 638,253 52.2% (with 270,000 in Thessaloniki alone)

306193 25.1% Greece West. Thraki 107607 8.8% Eastern Islands. Aegean Thessaly 56613 4.6% 34659 2.8% 33900 2.8% Crete Peloponnisos Epirus 28362 2.3% 8179 0.7% 4782 0.4% Cyclades islands Ionian 3301 0.3%
Total 1.221.849 100%

What a surprise !!
480.000 Turks (including the Muslim Greek speaking Valaades (islamized in the 17-18th cent) left Macedonia.
Where should the majority of the Greek refugees settle ? In Peloponesos?

http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/corpora/pi/content.html?c=9&t=3,3997

Thus, the Albanians, the Macedonians and the Turks that are Christian Orthodox, do not appear in official statistics, which are not reliable in any event. However, despite the ethnic mixing that has occurred since the population exchanges at the beginning of the 20th century, one can estimate that nearly 800 000 are Karamanites in Greece, a geat portin of which has been hellenised. In fact, a former president of the Greek republic, was a Karamanite.

http://www.istanbulguide.net/istguide/people/ethnies/turcsortho/grece.htm

Wow! Istanbulguide.net ! What a source!
Considering that total was 1.220.000 ,Pontians were 350.000 ,Greeks of Eastern Thrace some 300.000-350.000 more, Smyrna's Greeks only some 200.000 and that the West coast and Propontis were inhabited by Greeks since ever ,i think this guy is very bad at maths.
Karamanites and Cappadocians (half of them Greek speakers (Cappadocian Greek dialect))consisted some 50.000. Thats some 4% or less.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It says that slavic-speaking population self identifies as Greek(Ellinofrones) ,Bulgarian (Bulgarofrones) and a big part does NOT care about his nationality..so calls itself just Macedonian (!!!)

Let me see, normal Macedonians from Macedonia, even in this instance called MAKEDONES in Greek (!!), compared to some psychos who are also Macedonians but are FANATICS who self-identify as 'Greeks' or 'Bulgars'. Normal vs Fanatic, Macedonian vs Grkoman, Me vs You, respectively.

What a surprise !!
480.000 Turks (including the Muslim Greek speaking Valaades (islamized in the 17-18th cent) left Macedonia.
Where should the majority of the Greek refugees settle ? In Peloponesos?

Why not, then they could have been the returning and long-lost 638,253 Spartan Dorians, lol.

By the way, I have seen of evidence of Macedonian-speaking Muslims evicted from Greece, who now live in Turkey and have still maintained the Macedonian language and culture. Never heard of where the 'Greek' speaking Muslims are now in Turkey, perhaps you can show us where they were settled and/or where they are now?

Karamanites consisted some 50.000. Thats some 4% or less.

There are in excess of 100,000 native Turkish-speaking Christians recorded in the 1928 Greek census, does that include the Karamanlis clan? Who are the other 50 thou? Let me guess, Turkish-speaking "Hellenes", hahaha.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Front row, left side of the picture. Terry, is that your papou? Or is it the one next to him?

[TerraNova]

By the way, I have seen of evidence of Macedonian-speaking Muslims evicted from Greece, who now live in Turkey and have still maintained the Macedonian language and culture. Never heard of where the 'Greek' speaking Muslims are now in Turkey, perhaps you can show us where they were settled and/or where they are now?

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Greek_Muslims

I ve once seen a couple of videos of Vallahades on youtube,speaking Greek and talking about will to visit their grandpa's houses in Grevena and Aliakmon regions.
I think it was from a Greek travel documentary.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for that.

So, do you see any familiar features up there in the photo?

[TerraNova]

My pappoudes and yiayiades's families were from the land i live as fas as memory can go back.
You may feel sorry that you re not living in the great land of Macedonia any more-our roots are still here

ps-don't tell me that the guy in 1.01'' doesn't look asiatic!
YouTube - he Edwardians In Colour - 03 - Europe on the Brink (PART 3)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your papou and yiayia were either Macedonians or Vlachs that turned Grkoman, or arrived on a burning boat from Asia. Stop kidding yourself.

And don't compare one person on 1.01 to in excess of 600,000 Asians, I am sure even your nephew in kindergaten that is descended from Pericles wouldn't be so imbecilic.

[TerraNova]

Your papou and yiayia were either Macedonians or Vlachs that turned Grkoman, or arrived on a burning boat from Asia. Stop kidding yourself.

And don't compare one person on 1.01 to in excess of 600,000 Asians, I am sure even your nephew in kindergaten that is descended from Pericles wouldn't be so imbecilic.

Since you can doubt about my Greek speaking family...can you do the same about yours?
I 'd bet my land in Macedonia () ,that you have an uncle,aunt,granpa,great granma...someone... who identified as Bulgarian,Serbian or Greek.

[Bratot]

TerraNova,

making us look asiatic, won't make you look less


Do we need any evidence, really, anyone who has visited Greece is aware of the short size,hairy,dark nature of Greeks.
So spare us from a continual in order to show few pics of your ppl to prove our point.

I dont see a difference between you and the Turks.



Martin Baldwin-Edwards

"The Asia Minor atrocities and the ‘Exchange of Populations"

Toward the end of the Greek Army’s disastrous three-year Asia Minor campaign, the region’s Christian population fled as terrified refugees to various ports around the city of Smyrna in Asia Minor. The Turks entered Smyrna in September 1922 and eye-witness accounts testify to the violence and horrors which rapidly ensued – although not only from the Turkish side (Pentzopoulos, 1962: 46). Hundreds of thousands of refugees arrived at Greek ports, destitute, starving and desperate for assistance. Since the fighting had indirectly involved the Great Powers, an armistice was rapidly signed by the British (thus averting an Anglo-Turkish war) and there was a call for a peace conference at Lausanne. Such was the background to the Lausanne Conference and the Exchange of Population Conventions of 1923.

Throughout the Ottoman period, and despite the efforts of the ‘millet’ system to enforce different statuses according to religion (Roudometof, 1998), the population exhibited multiple and complex identities that ill-suited emerging nation-states such as Greece, Bulgaria and later Turkey. Language, for example, was not a defining feature: many Greeks in Asia Minor (known as Karamanli) actually spoke Turkish which they wrote in Greek script. Others spoke Greek but notated it in Arabic or Latin characters; and many ethnic groups, such as Vlach, spoke Greek but refused to be called Greeks.

Local
identities, or class identities, tended to be as important as language or ethnic identity. Even religion, which clearly divided the population into Muslim and Christian, was less divisive than might be imagined. Religion in the Balkans was to some extent a pragmatic issue, riddled with superstition whilst trying to minimise risk and hardship – at the extreme, representing a form of insurance rather than devotion to the religion’s fundamental beliefs. There was also significant intermarriage between Christians and Muslims, multiple conversions between religions and adoption of various Islamic practices by the Christian population (Mazower, 2003: 70-71). Throughout the Ottoman period, there was: A large number of ethnic groups… [with] intricacy, variability and fluidity of ethnic categorization and identification. (Vermeulen, 1984: 226)

According to the Treaty, all Turkish nationals of the Greek Orthodox religion established on Turkish territory (other than Constantinople) and all Greek nationals of Muslim religion established on Greek territory (other than the newly-acquired region of Western Thrace) were to be forcibly exchanged. Thus, the distinguishing criterion chosen for compulsory resettlement was exclusively that of religion: the result was that a minimum of 1.3 million Greeks were expelled from Turkey and some 500 000 Muslims were sent to Turkey. All were dispossessed of their property –- which, in the case of many of the bourgeois Greek refugees, was substantial -– and this loss of property was subsequently confirmed by the Ankara Treaty of 1930.

The Lausanne negotiations had left some 150-200 000 "Greeks" in Constantinople and a similar number of Muslims in Western Thrace; the Treaty stipulates the legal obligations and other conditions imposed on the country hosting each minority. These conditions still pertain.

Numerous repressive measures adopted by the Greek authorities, including the notorious removal of their Greek citizenship from those who dared to travel to Turkey, have inclined even the non-Turkish speaking component of the Minority into public identification as Turkish. Throughout the Ottoman period, Christians had informally referred to non-Arab Muslims (e.g. Kurds, Turks, Albanians) as "Turks" (Quataert, 2000: 173); despite this long tradition, such identification is prohibited under Greek law and they can only identify themselves as Muslims.
















Karamanlides belong to the turkish nation of Bozdogan, which belongs to the turki people Оghous, a part of the modern turkish nation. That is common know in Turkey and the rest of the world. They know also the "greek macedonians" because their ancestors were turks-karamanlides.


Karamanlides were orthodox turks and never changed the religion. They had a Turkler Orthoidox Church and a famous leader and turskih orthodox patriarch EFTIM PASHA. He fought his people, the orthodox turks not to be deported in Greece, as they are by nationality solely TURKS which not converted into islam, as the rest of the turkish nation (Teoman Ergene, İstiklal Harbinde Türk Ortodoksları [Turkish Orthodox During the War of Independence](Istanbul, 1951), passim.// Macar, op.cit., 84-94 Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate).

About 850.000 orthodox turks are settled by the Greeks in Aegean Macedonia in 1922, although they were not greeks, but ethnic turks (December 4, 1922,“The New York Times” Page 16, Col. 3).

The MOTHER TONGUE OF THE KARAMANLIDES IS TURKISH LANGUAGE, THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT IS OFFICIAL IN TURKEY NOW (E.Z.Karal "Osmanli Tarihinde Turk Dili Sorunu", "The Turkish Language Problem in Ottoman History) page 25.).



Dont make me post a whole list of Turkish words being use today in the Greek modern language.

[TerraNova]

Bratot it seems everything is mixed in your head.
I mean...turkish words are used in Greek...and in your language not??
Some turkish sites speaking about 850.000 !!! Karamanlides..ok just laughable i would say.
Finally...what are you trying to prove.?

Just for the record a map showing the ratio of population in Greek Macedonia in the year 1926.




Dark Blue :Native Greeks (Greek speakinh)
Light Blue: Greek Refugees
Purple : Vlachs (pro Greek and pro Romanian)
Yellow:Others (pred.Jews)
Dark Red: "Slavophones" ex Patriarchists(your beloved Grkmani)
Red : "Slavophones" ex Exarchists

[Bratot]

"...Population statistics for Macedonia are virtually meaningless. Turkish authorities rarely bothered with a census, and whe they did, the returns were based on the basis of a religious affiliation rather than language or nationality. A 1905 census of the three Macedonian vilayets produced the following figures concerning the non-Muslim peoples:

Greeks (Rum Millet) - 648,962
Bulgars (Bulgar Millet) - 557,734
Serbs (Serb Millet) - 167,601
Miscelaneous (Jews and others) - 77,386

These figures are meaningfull only for religious affiliation. Under the heading "Greeks" were included all those that attended Patriarchist schools and churches, regardless of whether their language was Greek, Slav, Albanian, or Vlach. Similarly, the "Bulgars" comprised all those that attended Bulgarian churches and schools, and the same held for the "Serbs".

It is apparent that so far as national allegiance was concerned, these figures are of little use. In practce they obscured the issue because each party jugled the figures to support its case. The Greeks, for example, claimed all those listed uner "Rum Millet", but this was strenously contested by other Balkan peoples, who argued that an Albanian, Slav or Vlach did not necessarily become Greek simply because he attended a particular school or church.

Only a few general conclusions can be drawn from the available evidence. Those inhabitants of Macedonia that lived close to teh Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian frontiers could be classified ads being mostly Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian respetivelly.

The remainder of the population, with the exception of few distinct minorities as Turks, Vlachs, Jews, and Albainians may be considered as being distinctly Macedonian. These Macedonians had a dialect and certain cultural characteristics which justify their being classified as a distinct South Slav group. ........"

(L.S. Stavrianos, "History of the Balkans Since 1453", New York University Press, 2000, pg. 517-518)

[Sarafot]

Bratot it seems everything is mixed in your head.
I mean...turkish words are used in Greek...and in your language not??
Some turkish sites speaking about 850.000 !!! Karamanlides..ok just laughable i would say.
Finally...what are you trying to prove.?

Just for the record a map showing the ratio of population in Greek Macedonia in the year 1926.




Dark Blue :Native Greeks (Greek speakinh)
Light Blue: Greek Refugees
Purple : Vlachs (pro Greek and pro Romanian)
Yellow:Others (pred.Jews)
Dark Red: "Slavophones" ex Patriarchists(your beloved Grkmani)
Red : "Slavophones" ex Exarchists

So bouth,dark red and red are makeing about 10%,wright?

[TerraNova]

"...Population statistics for Macedonia are virtually meaningless. Turkish authorities rarely bothered with a census, and whe they did, the returns were based on the basis of a religious affiliation rather than language or nationality. A 1905 census of the three Macedonian vilayets produced the following figures concerning the non-Muslim peoples:

Greeks (Rum Millet) - 648,962
Bulgars (Bulgar Millet) - 557,734
Serbs (Serb Millet) - 167,601
Miscelaneous (Jews and others) - 77,386

These figures are meaningfull only for religious affiliation. Under the heading "Greeks" were included all those that attended Patriarchist schools and churches, regardless of whether their language was Greek, Slav, Albanian, or Vlach. Similarly, the "Bulgars" comprised all those that attended Bulgarian churches and schools, and the same held for the "Serbs".

It is apparent that so far as national allegiance was concerned, these figures are of little use. In practce they obscured the issue because each party jugled the figures to support its case. The Greeks, for example, claimed all those listed uner "Rum Millet", but this was strenously contested by other Balkan peoples, who argued that an Albanian, Slav or Vlach did not necessarily become Greek simply because he attended a particular school or church.

Only a few general conclusions can be drawn from the available evidence. Those inhabitants of Macedonia that lived close to teh Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian frontiers could be classified ads being mostly Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian respetivelly.

The remainder of the population, with the exception of few distinct minorities as Turks, Vlachs, Jews, and Albainians may be considered as being distinctly Macedonian. These Macedonians had a dialect and certain cultural characteristics which justify their being classified as a distinct South Slav group. ........"

(L.S. Stavrianos, "History of the Balkans Since 1453", New York University Press, 2000, pg. 517-518)

1926.
No Ottoman data.No Rum milliet.

[TerraNova]

So bouth,dark red and red are makeing about 10%,wright?

9.9% to be more accurate.