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October 27, 2008
By Gandeto
Here, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the American Chronicle for allowing me to respond to the above published letter on October 21, 2008. The Chronicle should be commended for the opportunities afforded to readers to be able to air their differences of opinion in an open public forum. I salute their publishing standards and marvel at their displayed courage, for not too long ago the University of Cambridge Press backed off from publishing Anastasia Karakasidou´s book "Fields of Wheat, Fields of Blood" (University of Chicago Press, 1997) under threats from the Greek ultra nationalistic forces within Greece who did not like her description of the ethnic minorities living in Greece, specifically her admission that in Greece there are people who declared themselves ethnic Macedonians. Again, kudos to the American Chronicle for your unbiased approach to discussions and your balanced opportunities given.
There are several very contentious points in Mr. Mottas´ letter that I would like to address but because of space consideration I will focus my attention on only one. I would like to comment briefly on his first statement, which in my opinion is the crux of the matter, where he refers to the appropriation of symbols of the ancient Macedonians.
He writes:
(1) "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) has based its own existence in the appropriation and use of ancient Greek names and symbols".
Answer: First and foremost, let it be known that Greece has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians and their symbols. Nowhere in the writings of the ancient biographers like Arian, Plutarch, Diodorus, Herodotus, Justin, Levy, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Polybius, Thucydides, Polyaenus and others, do we find Ancient Macedonians being referred to as Greeks or any claims of being anything else but Macedonians. Nowhere in the annals of the written history, do we find Ancient Greeks claiming the Ancient Macedonians as their own people. Nor do we find any such evidence with the ancient statesmen, philosophers or common folk who expressed their innermost heartfelt feelings, like for example, Demarathus from Corinth who was disappointed not to see a Greek sitting on Darius´ throne. Moreover, preserved epitaphs, anecdotal references and administrative decrees issued against the Macedonians speak volumes of the opposite.
The evidence against the assumption that ancient Macedonian symbols are Greek symbols is demonstrably overwhelming and any attempt to subvert or manipulate the truth, runs contrary to the accepted scholarly norms of interpreting ancient historical evidence. If indeed there is such evidence, then it must come from sources other than these biographers listed above and one wonders and is surely compelled to ask: what other sources are there? The same compelling reasons oblige us to separate ancient or geographic Macedonia from Greece. Greece acquired Macedonian land for the first time in 1912-13 with the Balkan wars and until 1986 Greece vehemently opposed the usage of the word Macedonia.
Ancient Greeks did not regard the ancient Macedonians as kinsmen. One does not have to go too far to find a plethora of evidence for it. The words of Isocrates (Isoc.5.108, 154), Aristotle (fr. 658), Demades (Demetr. De Eloc. 283; Plut. Phoc. 22), Lycurgus ("with the dead of Chaeronea was buried the freedom of Greece"), Demosthenes (Third Philippic 9.30; Demosth. De Core. 285 ff) and many others too numerous to mention here, have amply demonstrated that ancient Macedonians were never regarded as Greeks. (This newly hatched idea that ancient Macedonians can easily be transformed into Greeks became feasible with the break up of the Ottoman Empire and the inception of the Megali Idea by a few Greeks in 1830.) These selected passages from the an cient biographers will clarify my point:
Levy´s testaments of the past clearly speak of two different geographical entities; Greek city-states on one hand and Macedonia on the other. There is not an ounce of ambiguity left to ponder as to who was who in antiquity. Levy (Books XXXII.31-38) describes the negotiations between Philip V, the king of Macedon, and the Roman commander, Qiunctius, in regards to the Greeks demanding that Philip V evacuate from the whole of Greece. We find passages where Philip V speaks of the territory that he captured and now occupied by right of conquest. We also find passages where Greeks themselves, speak in front of the Roman Senate about the geography of that part of the world and "…it was made clear to all that if the king (Philip V from Macedon) held Demetrias in Thessaly, Chalcis in Euboea, and Corinth in Achaea, then Greece would not be free." (Since the battle of Chaeronea in 338, Greece was a conquered territory wo n by the Macedonian spear. While Roman commanders speak of liberating the Greek city-states, they, the Romans, wage war against Macedon).
Philip V readied himself for a war with the Romans while Athenians´ resentment toward him reached feverish points and the popular assembly in Athens immediately carried a proposal (the assistance from Rome was under way), "…that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion heap curses and execrations on Philip, his family and realm, his forces on land and sea, and the whole race and name of the Macedonians." (Book XXXI.45) A logical question is in order: Would Greeks heap curses against their own king? Their own race?
In Polybius´ Book V, 104, we find this passage recorded at the meeting between Philip V, the king of Macedonia and the allied Greek forces of the Achaean League; Agelaus of Naupactus, speaking to the king:
"…I appeal especially to King Philip. For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would as if it were a part of your own dominion. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies." Once again, I am compelled to ask the following: is there any doubt as to how the ancient Greeks regarded the ancient Macedonians? Did they think that Macedonia was part of Greece? Is there mention of kinsmen?
Greeks in antiquity, even though quite quarrelsome among themselves at times, were united by the community of blood and language, by their religion, by temples and rituals and their common customs (Hdt. 8.144) and separated from the rest of the barbarians ( non-Hellenes) whom they regarded as enemies that could be enslaved and exterminated at will (Plato, Isocrates). The ancient Greeks regarded the ancient Macedonians as barbarians, semi-savages, uncouth of speech and dialect, retrograde in their political institutions (Green, 1991) that lived north of mount Olympus. Ancient Macedonians, in turn, looked down upon these pedantic Greeks with utter contempt.
Herodotus reports that Thessalians were the first Greeks to fall under Persian rule in 479 B.C. (Hdt. 7.130). He also reports that Persian armies arrived on Macedonian soil in 491 BC. That is over 12 years of time difference. If Herodotus, the so called father of history, regarded Macedonia as Greek land, he surely wouldn´t have made such a glaring omission. Arian speaks of racial rivalry and hatred between Macedonians and Greeks while Plutarch and Rufus report on the Macedonian language.
The following authors have clearly stated that ancient Macedonians were neither regarded as Greeks by the Greeks nor thought themselves as Greeks. Literature is replete with examples where ancient Macedonians not only displayed their Macedonian character with pride but wore it on their shields. In antiquity it was an honor to have fought in the Macedonian style of fighting or to have carried Macedonian armor. It was a medal of distinction. Greeks could not be mentioned in a same breath as ancient Macedonians and that was a common knowledge.
If one wishes to believe in the opposite then he/she ought to dismiss or at least resort to falsification of the preserved episodes with Callisthenes, Eumenes of Cardia and Memnon of Rhodes.
Thus, Greece has no legal, moral or any other rights to claim the Ancient Macedonian symbols for herself. It would be a case of a stolen property. In conclusion, it is one thing to bully a country but quite different to hijack her historical heritage.
The writings of the following authors will confirm my assertions: Badian, Borza, Bosworth, Green, Jouguet, Hogarth, Jeager, Wilcken, Bloedow, Adcock, Cawkwell, Wallbank, Berve, Brunt, Ellis, Casson, Griffith, Karakasidou and many others.
By Gandeto
Here, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the American Chronicle for allowing me to respond to the above published letter on October 21, 2008. The Chronicle should be commended for the opportunities afforded to readers to be able to air their differences of opinion in an open public forum. I salute their publishing standards and marvel at their displayed courage, for not too long ago the University of Cambridge Press backed off from publishing Anastasia Karakasidou´s book "Fields of Wheat, Fields of Blood" (University of Chicago Press, 1997) under threats from the Greek ultra nationalistic forces within Greece who did not like her description of the ethnic minorities living in Greece, specifically her admission that in Greece there are people who declared themselves ethnic Macedonians. Again, kudos to the American Chronicle for your unbiased approach to discussions and your balanced opportunities given.
There are several very contentious points in Mr. Mottas´ letter that I would like to address but because of space consideration I will focus my attention on only one. I would like to comment briefly on his first statement, which in my opinion is the crux of the matter, where he refers to the appropriation of symbols of the ancient Macedonians.
He writes:
(1) "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) has based its own existence in the appropriation and use of ancient Greek names and symbols".
Answer: First and foremost, let it be known that Greece has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians and their symbols. Nowhere in the writings of the ancient biographers like Arian, Plutarch, Diodorus, Herodotus, Justin, Levy, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Polybius, Thucydides, Polyaenus and others, do we find Ancient Macedonians being referred to as Greeks or any claims of being anything else but Macedonians. Nowhere in the annals of the written history, do we find Ancient Greeks claiming the Ancient Macedonians as their own people. Nor do we find any such evidence with the ancient statesmen, philosophers or common folk who expressed their innermost heartfelt feelings, like for example, Demarathus from Corinth who was disappointed not to see a Greek sitting on Darius´ throne. Moreover, preserved epitaphs, anecdotal references and administrative decrees issued against the Macedonians speak volumes of the opposite.
The evidence against the assumption that ancient Macedonian symbols are Greek symbols is demonstrably overwhelming and any attempt to subvert or manipulate the truth, runs contrary to the accepted scholarly norms of interpreting ancient historical evidence. If indeed there is such evidence, then it must come from sources other than these biographers listed above and one wonders and is surely compelled to ask: what other sources are there? The same compelling reasons oblige us to separate ancient or geographic Macedonia from Greece. Greece acquired Macedonian land for the first time in 1912-13 with the Balkan wars and until 1986 Greece vehemently opposed the usage of the word Macedonia.
Ancient Greeks did not regard the ancient Macedonians as kinsmen. One does not have to go too far to find a plethora of evidence for it. The words of Isocrates (Isoc.5.108, 154), Aristotle (fr. 658), Demades (Demetr. De Eloc. 283; Plut. Phoc. 22), Lycurgus ("with the dead of Chaeronea was buried the freedom of Greece"), Demosthenes (Third Philippic 9.30; Demosth. De Core. 285 ff) and many others too numerous to mention here, have amply demonstrated that ancient Macedonians were never regarded as Greeks. (This newly hatched idea that ancient Macedonians can easily be transformed into Greeks became feasible with the break up of the Ottoman Empire and the inception of the Megali Idea by a few Greeks in 1830.) These selected passages from the an cient biographers will clarify my point:
Levy´s testaments of the past clearly speak of two different geographical entities; Greek city-states on one hand and Macedonia on the other. There is not an ounce of ambiguity left to ponder as to who was who in antiquity. Levy (Books XXXII.31-38) describes the negotiations between Philip V, the king of Macedon, and the Roman commander, Qiunctius, in regards to the Greeks demanding that Philip V evacuate from the whole of Greece. We find passages where Philip V speaks of the territory that he captured and now occupied by right of conquest. We also find passages where Greeks themselves, speak in front of the Roman Senate about the geography of that part of the world and "…it was made clear to all that if the king (Philip V from Macedon) held Demetrias in Thessaly, Chalcis in Euboea, and Corinth in Achaea, then Greece would not be free." (Since the battle of Chaeronea in 338, Greece was a conquered territory wo n by the Macedonian spear. While Roman commanders speak of liberating the Greek city-states, they, the Romans, wage war against Macedon).
Philip V readied himself for a war with the Romans while Athenians´ resentment toward him reached feverish points and the popular assembly in Athens immediately carried a proposal (the assistance from Rome was under way), "…that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion heap curses and execrations on Philip, his family and realm, his forces on land and sea, and the whole race and name of the Macedonians." (Book XXXI.45) A logical question is in order: Would Greeks heap curses against their own king? Their own race?
In Polybius´ Book V, 104, we find this passage recorded at the meeting between Philip V, the king of Macedonia and the allied Greek forces of the Achaean League; Agelaus of Naupactus, speaking to the king:
"…I appeal especially to King Philip. For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would as if it were a part of your own dominion. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies." Once again, I am compelled to ask the following: is there any doubt as to how the ancient Greeks regarded the ancient Macedonians? Did they think that Macedonia was part of Greece? Is there mention of kinsmen?
Greeks in antiquity, even though quite quarrelsome among themselves at times, were united by the community of blood and language, by their religion, by temples and rituals and their common customs (Hdt. 8.144) and separated from the rest of the barbarians ( non-Hellenes) whom they regarded as enemies that could be enslaved and exterminated at will (Plato, Isocrates). The ancient Greeks regarded the ancient Macedonians as barbarians, semi-savages, uncouth of speech and dialect, retrograde in their political institutions (Green, 1991) that lived north of mount Olympus. Ancient Macedonians, in turn, looked down upon these pedantic Greeks with utter contempt.
Herodotus reports that Thessalians were the first Greeks to fall under Persian rule in 479 B.C. (Hdt. 7.130). He also reports that Persian armies arrived on Macedonian soil in 491 BC. That is over 12 years of time difference. If Herodotus, the so called father of history, regarded Macedonia as Greek land, he surely wouldn´t have made such a glaring omission. Arian speaks of racial rivalry and hatred between Macedonians and Greeks while Plutarch and Rufus report on the Macedonian language.
The following authors have clearly stated that ancient Macedonians were neither regarded as Greeks by the Greeks nor thought themselves as Greeks. Literature is replete with examples where ancient Macedonians not only displayed their Macedonian character with pride but wore it on their shields. In antiquity it was an honor to have fought in the Macedonian style of fighting or to have carried Macedonian armor. It was a medal of distinction. Greeks could not be mentioned in a same breath as ancient Macedonians and that was a common knowledge.
If one wishes to believe in the opposite then he/she ought to dismiss or at least resort to falsification of the preserved episodes with Callisthenes, Eumenes of Cardia and Memnon of Rhodes.
Thus, Greece has no legal, moral or any other rights to claim the Ancient Macedonian symbols for herself. It would be a case of a stolen property. In conclusion, it is one thing to bully a country but quite different to hijack her historical heritage.
The writings of the following authors will confirm my assertions: Badian, Borza, Bosworth, Green, Jouguet, Hogarth, Jeager, Wilcken, Bloedow, Adcock, Cawkwell, Wallbank, Berve, Brunt, Ellis, Casson, Griffith, Karakasidou and many others.
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