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View Poll Results: Feel Macedonia is culturally Mediterranean or Slavic?
Mediterranean 2 66.67%
Slavic 1 33.33%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-07-2019, 06:11 PM   #11
Risto the Great
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Originally Posted by YuriB View Post
Risto, I'm so sorry we treated you and your family so bad.. I strongly believe that we would have been a much better place had we embraced our Macedonian compatriots.
Thank you YuriB. I have said it before, if Greece played the game differently, Macedonians could have been the best and fiercest of Greeks. By differently, I mean by acknowledging the differences in language and culture and yet embracing/including them as part of the modern Greek culture (which could have used commonality in religion). Sure it sounds strange to hear a proud Macedonian say this, but we are talking about an era long gone now. Perhaps around the time the modern Greek nation was formed until about when the Abecedar was introduced.

Greece is still a multi ethnic State and still suffers from its own existential dilemmas.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:30 PM   #12
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Macedonians have to be the most divided nation on the planet. Since the borders were put in place in 1913, our homeland and our people were divided:

-Linguistically (Greek in Aegean Macedonia, Serbian/Bulgarian in the north)
-Religiously (different Orthodox churches, different church calendars where we can't even celebrate Christmas together)
-Time zones (Aegean/Pirin Macedonia is an hour ahead)
-Economic systems (Yugoslav/Bulgarian communist economy vs Greek capitalist economy)
-Political systems (East/Soviet oriented government vs West oriented government)
-Writing systems (Cyrillic vs Greek)
etc. etc. etc.

Whether Macedonians should be grouped with the Eastern Europe/Slavic countries vs Mediterranean countries is just another division stemming from 1913.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Thank you YuriB. I have said it before, if Greece played the game differently, Macedonians could have been the best and fiercest of Greeks. By differently, I mean by acknowledging the differences in language and culture and yet embracing/including them as part of the modern Greek culture (which could have used commonality in religion). Sure it sounds strange to hear a proud Macedonian say this, but we are talking about an era long gone now. Perhaps around the time the modern Greek nation was formed until about when the Abecedar was introduced.

Greece is still a multi ethnic State and still suffers from its own existential dilemmas.
I've always thought along similar lines. If Greeks just accepted Macedonians as a unique nation and accepted the fact that they do occupy part of ethno-historic Macedonia, which is Macedonian and not Greek, then there would have been a massive rapprochement between us. Macedonia could not make any territorial claims and I don't think it even would have wanted to. We can barely deal with a few hundred thousand Albanians, let alone adding a couple of million Greeks, Turks and more Albanians to that mix.

If Greece respected the human rights of Macedonians within their borders, it would have been a full and final settlement. But the Greeks have just as much, if not more, of an identity crisis as us. I suspect their real fear was not losing territory, but losing a part of the myth of Greekness. Which to me is strange because they have plenty to celebrate - probably much more than we do. The Greeks excelled in areas we couldn't even come close to - areas such as philosophy, political thought, science, mathematics, literature etc.

What the appropriation of the Macedonian contribution to history added to Greekness I will never understand. The most we achieved was the mastery of brute force - and when we need it the most its long gone.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:07 PM   #14
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Macedonians are neither ‘slavic’ or Mediterranean. They are part of the Balkan group of people but ultimately they are just simply Macedonians, unique amongst the other Balkan people. I’m not going to waste my time going into details about history and other stuff, but you can simply see Macedonians are a different people when you look at their physical appearance when comparing them to the regular serb, Greek etc
Btw I classify Balkan people who are an old, mountaines race of different people, who are a mixture of ancient and modern peoples.

Excluding the Slovenes there are no ‘pure slavs’ in the balkans. Ironic considering most right wing Slovenes think they are german and even more ironic as serbs think they are the most purest ‘slavs’ in the Balkans and thus little Russians (they are the least Slavic ‘slavs’ along with bulgars and Macedonians).

Look at the Romanians, they are genetically very similar to Bulgarians and Serbs (and probably Macedonians) yet their national idea is that they are a ‘latin people’. My opinion is that they are a mixture of Dacians (ancient people) with a big Slavic influence and a bit of “latin” (modern peoples) – basically the typical Balkan mix.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
I've always thought along similar lines. If Greeks just accepted Macedonians as a unique nation and accepted the fact that they do occupy part of ethno-historic Macedonia, which is Macedonian and not Greek, then there would have been a massive rapprochement between us. Macedonia could not make any territorial claims and I don't think it even would have wanted to. We can barely deal with a few hundred thousand Albanians, let alone adding a couple of million Greeks, Turks and more Albanians to that mix.

If Greece respected the human rights of Macedonians within their borders, it would have been a full and final settlement. But the Greeks have just as much, if not more, of an identity crisis as us. I suspect their real fear was not losing territory, but losing a part of the myth of Greekness. Which to me is strange because they have plenty to celebrate - probably much more than we do. The Greeks excelled in areas we couldn't even come close to - areas such as philosophy, political thought, science, mathematics, literature etc.

What the appropriation of the Macedonian contribution to history added to Greekness I will never understand. The most we achieved was the mastery of brute force - and when we need it the most its long gone.
Good point.

I think it would have been easy to turn macedonians into good greeks, and this would probably lead to macedonians being loyal to greece, or possibly eventually assimilating them into greeks in the long run.

Who knows perhaps in this alternate time line imagine if republic of macedonia was to become independent from yugoslavia and immediately be looked after by greece and turned into a small greek satelite country support and controlled by Greece.

Instead the greeks have turned (intellegent) macedonians into enemies for eternaty. Its typical balkan short sightness and greek backwardness.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
I have said it before, if Greece played the game differently, Macedonians could have been the best and fiercest of Greeks.
I don't belive you would be erroneous by stating this, one only needs to look at the example of Yugoslavia for evidence to support this kind of view. Once Macedonians were “allowed” to be who they were, most eventually became accepting of the federation, with many becoming strong advocates of it.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Thank you YuriB. I have said it before, if Greece played the game differently, Macedonians could have been the best and fiercest of Greeks. By differently, I mean by acknowledging the differences in language and culture and yet embracing/including them as part of the modern Greek culture (which could have used commonality in religion). Sure it sounds strange to hear a proud Macedonian say this, but we are talking about an era long gone now. Perhaps around the time the modern Greek nation was formed until about when the Abecedar was introduced.

Greece is still a multi ethnic State and still suffers from its own existential dilemmas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
I've always thought along similar lines. If Greeks just accepted Macedonians as a unique nation and accepted the fact that they do occupy part of ethno-historic Macedonia, which is Macedonian and not Greek, then there would have been a massive rapprochement between us. Macedonia could not make any territorial claims and I don't think it even would have wanted to. We can barely deal with a few hundred thousand Albanians, let alone adding a couple of million Greeks, Turks and more Albanians to that mix.

If Greece respected the human rights of Macedonians within their borders, it would have been a full and final settlement. But the Greeks have just as much, if not more, of an identity crisis as us. I suspect their real fear was not losing territory, but losing a part of the myth of Greekness. Which to me is strange because they have plenty to celebrate - probably much more than we do. The Greeks excelled in areas we couldn't even come close to - areas such as philosophy, political thought, science, mathematics, literature etc.

What the appropriation of the Macedonian contribution to history added to Greekness I will never understand. The most we achieved was the mastery of brute force - and when we need it the most its long gone.

Very interesting perspectives.

I have to ask both of you, from my point of view, coming from a background where I don't even know many people from Egejska, in what ways do you think Greeks didn't ultimately accomplish their goals in relation to the Macedonians within their borders?

I am of the view that Macedonians in Greece already are good Greeks. The numbers of Macedonians their who identify as such seems to be going down. They haven't really done anything in decades to counter the Greek states anti Macedonian platform.

Some Macedonians may be resentful but it at least appears that a majority have bought into the Greekness of Macedonians.

Is there more to it than the naked eye? Am I missing something? As I said I don't have any intimate examples to go off of.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:53 PM   #18
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Very interesting perspectives.

I have to ask both of you, from my point of view, coming from a background where I don't even know many people from Egejska, in what ways do you think Greeks didn't ultimately accomplish their goals in relation to the Macedonians within their borders?

I am of the view that Macedonians in Greece already are good Greeks. The numbers of Macedonians their who identify as such seems to be going down. They haven't really done anything in decades to counter the Greek states anti Macedonian platform.

Some Macedonians may be resentful but it at least appears that a majority have bought into the Greekness of Macedonians.

Is there more to it than the naked eye? Am I missing something? As I said I don't have any intimate examples to go off of.
They are Greeks nowadays in the same way as I am Australian. They have adopted the culture and perhaps more fully express themselves as Greek speakers. This is a logical outcome.

But as soon as any tension between the racial groups occurs, everyone knows precisely what they were or are.

Each successive generation knows less about it. But there you go.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:01 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Very interesting perspectives.

I have to ask both of you, from my point of view, coming from a background where I don't even know many people from Egejska, in what ways do you think Greeks didn't ultimately accomplish their goals in relation to the Macedonians within their borders?

I am of the view that Macedonians in Greece already are good Greeks. The numbers of Macedonians their who identify as such seems to be going down. They haven't really done anything in decades to counter the Greek states anti Macedonian platform.

Some Macedonians may be resentful but it at least appears that a majority have bought into the Greekness of Macedonians.

Is there more to it than the naked eye? Am I missing something? As I said I don't have any intimate examples to go off of.
There are a lot of Macedonians from Egej in my town and basically they fall into two categories. They're either grkomani or they are absolutely Macedonian and hate Greece with a passion. I've never met one that is indifferent. But that is just my personal experience in Australia. I don't have connections in Egej. My comments were broader in the sense that Greece will never subdue or assimilate all Macedonians in its borders by tyring to force them. It will never really have a rapprochement with Macedonia no matter how many agreements they sign. Greeks and Macedonians around the world will never collaborate on anything without justice. We'll be in perpetual opposition to each other, regardless of where we are, for as long as Greece continues on this imperialist path.

But if in 1991 it just said, you know what, the cold war is over, we're in the EU/NATO, our borders are secure, let the Macedonians be, lets just pull together as friends and neighbours, they wouldn't have had to waste time, energy and money on Greekifying everything and trying to convince the rest of the world that everything is Greek. And they've never managed to do this, nor can they ever really achieve it. There's limits to propaganda and that limit is intelligence.

They protest too much - and its because they know they have an identity problem and a big ethnic mix. They try to delude themselves and suppress it by making everything, absolutely everything, Greek...until they slip up and accidentally mention they have a baba, or gjyshe, or büyükanne or bunică or whatever.

I think RtG is right - they have a "Greek" civic identity, but they pretend that they are all ethnic Greeks, until they're not.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:04 PM   #20
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Nushevski,

Thanks for sharing, you are definitely in the right place. I don't think you will find another place so full of knowledge and perspective. It may be a little rough around the edges, but if you can look past that I'm sure you will find the answers you are looking for.

I apologize for being a little short with you upfront. Your post didn't make a lot of sense to me without the context you later provided. That's not to say that the question makes sense, but I do understand why you asked it.

One thing you have to learn first and foremost is how most people who are anti Macedonian typically intentionally conflate things such as religion, geography, language, etc to muddy the water and redefine what it means to be Macedonian. That is the main reason your question was quickly met with contempt. It is the type of logic that is used by people who want to prove that Macedonians are not their own ethnic group but a regional mishmash of all types of people who fit into other groups like Slavs, Greeks, Bulgarians, etc.

So the first thing you have to do is understand that being Macedonian supersedes all else. Our culture our identity is Macedonian period. Now if you are trying to find similarities in parts of Macedonian culture to parts of other cultures I'm sure you will find many form many different cultures. This is the case with any ethnic group anywhere in the world. Macedonians don't exist in a vacuum. Over the centuries Macedonians have come in contact with hundreds of different groups of people, all who have taken things and left things behind.

Our Food has hints of Mediterranean, Eastern European, Turkish, and some uniquely Macedonian elements.

Our language is of Slavic root.

Our alphabet has a Greek base but is created by and distinctly Macedonian.

Our genetics are predominantly from the Balkan region and near east with small amounts of northern European.

Our music is distinctly Macedonian, rooted in all the oppression and struggle over the centuries.

Mind you I'm doing this for your benefit but if you were to ask me I would classify all the above as just Macedonian. There is no need to try and justify it and appropriate it to anything else.

What would you say is French culturally? If you want to pick apart their culture you will find Germanic influence, Latin influence, British, Gothic, Spanish, etc etc. Half of the thinks modern Greeks pride themselves on can easily be appropriated to being Turkish.

Does this give some clarity? Instead of trying to generalize it, why don't you get more in touch with your roots and culture and experience it for yourself, then maybe you will better understand why my first answer and why the right answer to your question is just simply MACEDONIAN.
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