Ventilator

[aleksandrov]

vangelovski i can separate it because my values are probably different to yours, i find somethings more important than others and in my opinion a flag is not worth jeopardizing a whole nations existence....

How exactly are we jeopardizing "a whole nation's existence" by refusing to respect the flag imposed on us by our (foreign and domestic) oppressors or by not accepting that our oppressors have any right to decide what flag we should or should not use?

[makedonche]

Macedonians should embrace, that which unites them, with open arms.
Macedonians should reject, that which divides them, with closed fists.
If you apply these simple quotes to the discussion at hand it will lead you to the answers you seek. Whilst they may not be the answers of your choice they may well be the answers you need to seek.
"Smrt illi Sloboda" - Death or Freedom, I don't see any terms such as negotiation, flexibility, concessions, joining another body in return for economic prosperity - all I see is "Smrt illi Sloboda" are we not as staunch Macedonians as our forefathers?

The point being "freedom" - in all respects, not on a conditional basis, e.g.:whilst we were able to live under Turkish rule for 500 years we still did not have our freedom. Freedom of choice in particular!

[Jankovska]

Aleksandrov I think you are the one doing the bitching not me. You are the unhappy one. I am happy with the new flag, I love it and respect it. To me it represents home. The 16 ray sun to me represents nothing but anicent history. History that honestly I am proud of to a certain point. Not too proud.

[aleksandrov]

“Consenting to slavery is a sacrilegious breach of trust, as offensive in the sight of God as it is derogatory from our own honor or interest of happiness.” John Adams

The slave of fear: the worst of slaveries.” George Bernard Shaw

“The moment the slave resolves that he will no longer be a slave, his fetters fall. Freedom and slavery are mental states.” Mahatma Gandhi

“Slaves would be tyrants were the chance theirs.” Victor Hugo

"The moral revolution – the revolution in the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest objective." Goce Delchev

[Bratot]

Maybe you are too young to feel the pain of those that marched and protested for our recognition, sovereignty and national and human rights through the 1980s and 1990s using the Macedonian Sun as our national symbol/flag. There was so MUCH HOPE AND PRIDE that has been GUTTED by the ALL THE IZRODI and their dirty deeds.

I fully AGREE with Aleksandrov and Vangelovski, amongst others, and it makes me proud to know there is still left Macedonians with dignity and integrity who are ready to voice their principled stand on vital Macedonian national issues.

Maybe you don't understand me in essence and should really restrain from categorizing the pain since we are all part of it and maybe the younger generations could be fury for the opportunity you had and blew it so the burden felt on the them today and have to carry on the shame.

The acceptance of the change itself -of the flag was an failure and disgrace but the current flag which emerged from that situation is our close design which should adequately be important when we are identifying with the same symbol - the sun and the flag collors.

There is no need of making an absurdity of discussion and spitting on this flag.

The unofficial Macedonian flag is the 16 rayed sun and if we succeed in our strugle we will bring it back for the official.

[julie]

Macedonians should embrace, that which unites them, with open arms.
Macedonians should reject, that which divides them, with closed fists.
If you apply these simple quotes to the discussion at hand it will lead you to the answers you seek. Whilst they may not be the answers of your choice they may well be the answers you need to seek.
"Smrt illi Sloboda" - Death or Freedom, I don't see any terms such as negotiation, flexibility, concessions, joining another body in return for economic prosperity - all I see is "Smrt illi Sloboda" are we not as staunch Macedonians as our forefathers?

The point being "freedom" - in all respects, not on a conditional basis, e.g.:whilst we were able to live under Turkish rule for 500 years we still did not have our freedom. Freedom of choice in particular!

Makedonche, well said.

incidentally, I shall digress a little if I may and then it will be pertinent to what i have to add

Numbers - could someone please tell me how many Macedonians are in the Republic of Macedonia
And then does anyone have any idea of numbers in the diaspora?

Thank you

[fyrOM]

Has anyone considered that our poletitions have been playing a deferal game. If so could you consider that they may have said that the 8 ray flag is nothing to do with antiquity simply to placate the eu who don’t know anything and the dumb greeks who cannot know what it means to be a Macedonian.

The first time the 16 ray was found in verginia greeks I have met have all said the the greek line that it is the star of Virginia. When I said it could not be a star it is the sun I was called an ignorant fool. Only a Macedonian knows how the stari talk about the sun as being all important even in christian days. I have never heard of ledgends like the greeks and others have of the stars. As I have said in other threads I have grown up very Australian but have always known where my roots were because regardless of whether you like being Macedonian or you don’t and I am not saying I don’t it is one thing you cannot escape anymore than you can escape your own skin. Look at meny web sites and you will see the greeks calling it the sun. I cannot imagine any Macedonians first impression being different from mine when they first saw it and call it the sun. when you chalenge the greeks there was a time they swaor it was a star they say the sun is a star you idiot. We know this to be a scientific fact today but try telling that to any ancient you morons.

How many of you have heard olds say da ne odis pod strej pre ugrej sonce and many others. Could it be our polititions put forward the 8 ray sun silently to pass it by any scrutiny knowing we still are the children of the sun at a time when the guts were ripped out of Macedonia by the serbs ie Yugoslavia and we were trying to find our feet betting on us defering decisions and dificulties until we are on our feet. Has anyone forgotten we are the only former Yugoslav repblic to leave without a war bar Montenegro which waited ages until Serbia was weak enough. Not all our polititions have been trators but give them leaway considering the extreem difficult positions they have been placed in. Even the 2001 conflict would have been fixed once and for all if the USA didn’t threaten to bomb us to the stone age. Many on thi site call for a stronger hand from our polititions but how many have considered it is the fast track to war and if you are in a position of strength one might consider we do not tolerate rubbish and send in the army but faced with virtually no power 4 wolves circling us and their external backers and internal negative elements who could say our polititions did not look to our old sayings imaj um I razum misli I praj. I know you will say some have been trators and I would agree. Some have been trators and others trators out of weakness and though grab what you can and if it goes to the dogs what can I do. We are not in the clear by far but the currant government is the best we have and given the juggling act they have performed I think they have held their own.

[julie]

Ozimak - the politicians are playing a game. Agreed.
They are traitors.
My identity is not up for sale.
It starts with the flag, then the name......oh, and the newly defined borders giving up RoM following a referendum called for by someone that has not had his forefathers blood spilt za SLOBODA....Frank has posted a very interesting map, nice to see it has surfaced at the time of a referendum called.

Ozimak, I dont like games or game players, or Macedonia being used as a pawn in a chess game.

Best government? Time will tell.....

[blackcactus]

We all agree the new flag is not meant to stay as it was our second choice not our first because of pressures/weakness/survival/politics/have your pick

We all agree the old flag is to be reinstated at some point if we fight for it and show we want it badly enough (Personally I'd like to include the blue center this time )

But we should not be insensitive to people who love the current flag (even if it's not meant to last), it's Macedonians who fought and died under that Red and Gold Sun that you are hurting, as well as national pride just because the new one doesn't have enough rays in it

I know what I have said will have no bearing on anyone's opinion, we are a stubborn, divisive breed, even in ancient times only the strongest of kings could unite us.. I love Macedonians

[aleksandrov]

"... Whenever you hear a man saying he wants freedom, but in the next breath he is going to tell you what he won't do to get it, or what he doesn't believe in doing in order to get it, he doesn't believe in freedom. A man who believes in freedom will do anything under the sun to acquire . . . or preserve his freedom." - Malcolm X

[TrueMacedonian]

TrueMacedonian, I will address this briefly, but only with the qualification that I consider it to be a detraction from the substantive issues here.

The concept of a 'national flag' as we know it today is a relatively new concept, just like the nation-state as we know it today is a relatively new concept. However, groups of people and communities with some sort of cultural, tribal, dynastic, regional or other bond have used shared symbols and even flags for many centuries. There is ample evidence from various periods in Macedonian history in which various forms of what we know as the 16-ray Sun symbol has been used by Macedonians, as a cultural, dynastic and religious symbol. The number of rays varies, but the basic form is essentially the same. As I said in an earlier post here, the primary 8 rays in the 16-ray Sun are the same as the 8 rays in the Sun symbol found in numerous Macedonian churches. I have also seen it on what are alleged to be Byzantine coins from the period in which the Macedonian Dynasty, which identified itself with the ancient Macedonians, ruled the East Roman Empire. Furthermore, if you can get your hands on a copy of Dr Petar Popovski's book "Георгија Кастриот - Искендер: Крал на Епир и Македонија и Втор Александар Македонски", you can read the following (pp. 339-340):

Државата на Георгија Кастриот имала и свои земски, државни симболи - знаме и грб, со кои била препознатлива меѓу останатите македонски феудални заедници во Матија - на Нов и Стар Епир и во Северна Арванија, територии кои пред и во време на османското владеење на тие простори биле третирани како Западна Македонија.

Имено, тоа биле симболите на древното Македонско античко Кралство - античките геми. Првобитно знамето на династијата на Кастриотите се состоело од црвена и бела боја на полето, со шестнаесеткрако Сонце во Средината. Црвената боја го покривала горниот и долниот дел од полето, а белата - средниот дел. Врз трите полиња било втиснато шестнаесеткрако Сонце, денес познато како Сонцето од Куклиш (според Грците - од Вергина), во златно жолта боја. На двата краја од полето имало реси - киски, истотака, во златно жолта боја. На горниот дел од штитот, кој бил во црвена боја, имало крст, изработен од сребро, поради што знаемто било нарекувано Крстат бајрак.

Знамето на античките Македонци се користело од како се знае за Кастриотите, од времето на најстариот предок Бране Иван(ов), чија традиција ја продолжил неговиот син Јован (Бранила) Канински, а тоа бил почетокот на XIII век. Овој вид знаме се негувало скорој кај пет генерации, до пред крајот на XIV век, кога под притисок од Византијците и Анжујците, кои во тоа време биле најмоќни воени сили на Медитеранот, дошло до негова промена. Мотивите за промена на изгледот на знамето на Кастриотите бил стравот кај тие сили од обнова на македонското античко кралство, што било разбирливо, бидејќи династијата на Кастриотите била во постојана експанзија, како во воен, така и во економски поглед. ..."

The author then goes into further detail about how widespread the 16-ray flag was among Macedonians leading up to and during Ottoman occupation, particularly among the regional Macedonian sub-group ('tribe'), known as Mijaci. There are plenty of references in the book.

The most important historical fact about the 16-ray Sun symbol is that it was freely chosen in the early 1980s as an autochthonous symbol of the indigenous Macedonian identity by the movement of Macedonians who advocated a free and united Macedonia, including a declaration of independence by the Republic of Macedonia. Were it not for that movement, of which people like Todor Petrov and the founders of MAAK and VMRO-DPMNE were a domestic part during the break-up of Yugoslavia and the establishment of the independent Republic of Macedonia, the sovereign Macedonian state of which that flag became a symbol would arguably not have come about.

You're quoting Petar Popovski the same guy who stated that the Olympics started in Macedonia and not in the ancient Hellene city-states. Yeah I am very skeptical of what you posted from his book. Here it is translated;

The state of Georgija Kastriot had their own ground, state symbols - flag and emblem, which was recognizable among the other communities in the Macedonian feudal Matija - New and Old Epirus and North Arvanija, territories which before and during the Ottoman rule of those areas were treated as Western Macedonia.

Namely, they were symbols of the ancient Macedonian ancient Kingdom - Ancient leveled. Originally the flag of the dynasty Kastriotite consisted of red and white box with shestnaesetkrako sun in the middle. Red paint covers the top and bottom of the box, and white - the middle part. On the three fields was pressed shestnaesetkrako Sun, today known as the Sun of Kuklish (according to the Greeks - from Virginia) in golden yellow. At both ends of the field had catkins - bouquet, also in golden yellow. On top of the shield, which was red, had a cross made of silver,,,,, was called Cross flag.

Flag of the ancient Macedonians were used as the Kastriotite know, from the oldest ancestor Brane Ivan (OJ), whose tradition was continued by his son John (Branila) Kaninski, and that was the beginning of the XIII century. This type of flag is cherished skoroj in five generations, until the end of XIV century, when under pressure from the Byzantines and Anzhujcite who were at that time most powerful military forces in the Mediterranean, led to his change. The motives for changing the appearance of the flag of Kastriotite was fear among those forces of renewal of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, which was understandable because Kastriotite dynasty was in constant expansion, both in war and in economic terms. ... "

YouTube - Petar Popovski - Macedonians are the creator of the Olympic Games, greece lies to the world !!!

I think you need to re-evaluate Popovski and his claims. Where is this wonderous flag Popovski claims exists?

[TrueMacedonian]

So now that we've established that you do not want to impose double standards, then that means that FYROM is acceptable as well because 'they' are doing 'nothing' about it?

Where are the major protests in Macedonia to call off the name negotiations? Why hasn't the Macedonian population rooted out every government that continues to negotiate the name of their country? Scare-mongering is a very useful political tool to create hysteria, fear, and self-loathing. Unfortunately the majority of the population haven't either figured out the root cause of this issue or are drowning in such a fear-mongering campaign that they don't know which way to turn. So they vote in these governments that promise the world and build Alexander the Great statues and re-name shitty airports after Alexander and name roads after him but unemployment is above 30%, the healthcare system is shot, and the youth go over to Bulgaria in droves and become Bulgarian citizens. To a point I think we can lay some responsibility on the Macedonian people in Macedonia for the situation that they are in today. But a majority of the blame rests on foreigners heads and the Macedonian government for perpetuating this nonsense.

[Vangelovski]

Where are the major protests in Macedonia to call off the name negotiations? Why hasn't the Macedonian population rooted out every government that continues to negotiate the name of their country?

TM,

This is exactly the same argument you have been using in justifying and legitimising the ventilator. Does this now mean that you accept FYROM? Are you begining to see my point?

[Risto the Great]

TM, the majority of the Macedonian population is well and truly whipped. They are the victims/slaves we talk about. They are not protesting about flags, names, hospitals, statues .... or anything else. They want jobs like the rich Westerners (without the work hours). They barely vote in Governments.

The people have to be blamed, they get what they deserve ... every day.

The flag is a symbol of their insipidness and is right up there with FYROM and out of principle I would demand it changed if I lived there.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

This is exactly the same argument you have been using in justifying and legitimising the ventilator. Does this now mean that you accept FYROM? Are you begining to see my point?

I'm sorry but that doesn't work that way. A play of words is one thing. Reality is another. I don't accept fyrom. I accept Macedonia only. But I accept the 8-ray flag you spit on because it was not drawn in a laboratory in Athens but is of Macedonian origin and maybe even ancient as well. I see your arguement and acknowledge your points. But by spitting on the new flag you are disrespecting Macedonia.

Rtg said;

TM, the majority of the Macedonian population is well and truly whipped. They are the victims/slaves we talk about. They are not protesting about flags, names, hospitals, statues .... or anything else. They want jobs like the rich Westerners (without the work hours). They barely vote in Governments.

I cannot disagree with you. I would like to say you are wrong but you are not. The Macedonians have to help themselves before anyone else can help them. This quote is a classic;

The worst thing you can do for those you love is the things they could and should do for themselves.

Abraham Lincoln

The flag is a symbol of their insipidness and is right up there with FYROM and out of principle I would demand it changed if I lived there.

I wish you did live in Macedonia. I know you would lead the charge.