United Macedonia Diaspora

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Bill77

I will not address the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement you posted as i am not concerned in this instance, i just want to know your opinions.

Here is the issue i have with this statement i hi-lighted.

A)To put into place a mechanism to safeguard something, this thing must be in some kind of threat or danger. With this ethnic Albanian issue, What part of their rights, as in day to day living, culture or what ever....... was unreasonably prohibited and in danger that needed safeguarding?

B)If you happen to find something to be "unreasonably prohibited" caused by Ethnic Macedonians prior to this agreement, please state what it was, but please give an example....a precedent, where another minority anywhere in the western world, had greater benefits than the Ethnic Albanians did prior to this agreement.

C)Then you can name me "currently" where another minority anywhere in the western world, has as much power, authority, influence, special privlages, outside protection, and arguably greater rights than the majority.

This is enough for now, i will address others later.

It wasn't that any particular rights of the Albanians was being violated (though I never lived in Macedonia and could not tell you exactly, other than what I've read from news reports)., Rather, it was a perception (justified or not, true or fabricated), on the part of Albanians that either their rights, standing, or interests were not on par with the Macedonians (or, at least, they convinced themselves of this). For example, state-funding for the private Albanian-language university in Tetovo seemed as an absolute must for Albanians, while sheer absurdity for Macedonians. Albanians argued they deserved such a university; Macedonians argued where else do states fund such kind of private universities? I don't think either were necessarily right or wrong. Why couldn't Macedonia just accredit the Tetovo University? Why did Macedonians want to make them pass a Macedonian comprehension test in order to get their degree? Or why can't Albanians just learn Macedonian? (Not akin situations, but Puerto Rico in the USA is given federal funds to run a Spanish-speaking University; 85% of Puerto Ricans can't even speak conversational English; they have a strong independence movement; etc.)

So, some Albanians believed that the NLA was actually fighting for these rights and interests (while many also disagreed with the fighting and didn't believe the NLA was actually fighting for the rights), and it was enough to create instability in Macedonia. And, as much as I disagree with many elements of the OFA, there was always a danger that, without some sort of dialogue and appeasement, Macedonia would spin into instability. With a restless Albanian population not only in Macedonia but in Kosovo, Presevo and northern Albania, along with German and American influence in the matters, I think the Macedonian politicians realized that something had to be done -- what would be the consequences of no OFA...short war, long war? A peace deal had to be reached. I would take the OFA, with all its faults, over a prolonged war any day. And the Badinter Principle at least has given the Macedonians something to point to: "Look, we can't take any of your rights away -- pre-OFA rights or post-OFA rights." The Macedonians appeased the Albanians. All that really matters is that one population perceived, or convinced themselves, that they were "lesser" in society, or that their interests weren't being fulfilled, even though they are legal citizens.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

It wasn't that any particular rights of the Albanians was being violated (though I never lived in Macedonia and could not tell you exactly, other than what I've read from news reports)., Rather, it was a perception (justified or not, true or fabricated), on the part of Albanians that either their rights, standing, or interests were not on par with the Macedonians (or, at least, they convinced themselves of this). For example, state-funding for the private Albanian-language university in Tetovo seemed as an absolute must for Albanians, while sheer absurdity for Macedonians. Albanians argued they deserved such a university; Macedonians argued where else do states fund such kind of private universities? I don't think either were necessarily right or wrong. Why couldn't Macedonia just accredit the Tetovo University? Why did Macedonians want to make them pass a Macedonian comprehension test in order to get their degree? Or why can't Albanians just learn Macedonian? (Not akin situations, but Puerto Rico in the USA is given federal funds to run a Spanish-speaking University; 85% of Puerto Ricans can't even speak conversational English; they have a strong independence movement; etc.)

So, some Albanians believed that the NLA was actually fighting for these rights and interests (while many also disagreed with the fighting and didn't believe the NLA was actually fighting for the rights), and it was enough to create instability in Macedonia. And, as much as I disagree with many elements of the OFA, there was always a danger that, without some sort of dialogue and appeasement, Macedonia would spin into instability. With a restless Albanian population not only in Macedonia but in Kosovo, Presevo and northern Albania, along with German and American influence in the matters, I think the Macedonian politicians realized that something had to be done -- what would be the consequences of no OFA...short war, long war? A peace deal had to be reached. I would take the OFA, with all its faults, over a prolonged war any day. And the Badinter Principle at least has given the Macedonians something to point to: "Look, we can't take any of your rights away -- pre-OFA rights or post-OFA rights." The Macedonians appeased the Albanians. All that really matters is that one population perceived, or convinced themselves, that they were "lesser" in society, or that their interests weren't being fulfilled, even though they are legal citizens.

. . . Tell me something Vicsinad, and I would appreciate your honesty in this matter, exactly what kind of Macedonia would you personally like to see created?, and furthermore, does this vision of yours also extend to the rest of south eastern Europe?

Since a number of us here sometimes find difficulty in interpreting the basis of some of your statements, I would also please ask for some elaboration in your response so that we all can get a clear understanding of your personal thoughts on this matter.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

. . . Tell me something Vicsinad, and I would appreciate your honesty in this matter, exactly what kind of Macedonia would you personally like to see created?, and furthermore, does this vision of yours also extend to the rest of south eastern Europe?

Since a number of us here sometimes find difficulty in interpreting the basis of some of your statements, I would also please ask for some elaboration in your response so that we all can get a clear understanding of your personal thoughts on this matter.

There is no need to say that you would appreciate my honesty because I have been nothing but honest in all of my responses.

Personally, I don't believe in the nation-state. That applies not only to the countries of the Balkans, but all countries. Rather, I prefer strong local civic engagement and control...I prefer the emphasis be on, and control given to, communities. I believe that communities are best capable, and most willing, to protect the interests, needs and rights of their populations. At the same time, I understand the complex situation of Macedonia being surrounded by countries that are still dominated by elements of nationalism. Thus, there are obvious conflicts between what I want, what can be reasonably or realistically expected to happen, and what the democratic process would actually result in.

[George S.]

Vicsand everyone is asking you to be honest & one thing youre not that you are actually a macedonian.You ask us to beleive that you never been to macedonia.There are other stupid comments that gave you away i don't think you are macedonian you are more than likely from your comments albanian.
Look at what you favour a no nation state.Macedonia can't be a homeland of the macedonians because you don't want it.Macedonia has got a minority that macedonia respects & has done so much for them & look what they get in return disrespect for their soveregnity.Actually they don't want macedonian soveregnity at all.
In other words you want to secede for a greater albania.Also you favour not learning the majority language which is macedonian.You know there is a saying out of curtesy & respect for one's country when in rome do as the romans do.What happens in macedonia you don't need to learn any language except albanian.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by George S.

Vicsand everyone is asking you to be honest & one thing youre not that you are actually a macedonian.You ask us to beleive that you never been to macedonia.There are other stupid comments that gave you away i don't think you are macedonian you are more than likely from your comments albanian.
Look at what you favour a no nation state.Macedonia can't be a homeland of the macedonians because you don't want it.Macedonia has got a minority that macedonia respects & has done so much for them & look what they get in return disrespect for their soveregnity.Actually they don't want macedonian soveregnity at all.
In other words you want to secede for a greater albania.Also you favour not learning the majority language which is macedonian.You know there is a saying out of curtesy & respect for one's country when in rome do as the romans do.What happens in macedonia you don't need to learn any language except albanian.

Again, about that making sense thing...

[George S.]

Victor if you answered the questions you would have got 10 out of 10 .So answer the questions that you were asked.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

When did I say the OFA isn't that bad?

When you said things like:

Originally Posted by vicsinad

"Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA."

and this:

Originally Posted by vicsinad

"To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.

You have not given any other views about the Framework Agreement. Other than to say it is not good. Yet the only detail you have provided suggests it isn't bad.

To remove any room for confusion, why not simply state what you do not like about the Framework Agreement? We aren't playing a game of strategy here. Just spell it out, because you haven't yet.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

You have not given any other views about the Framework Agreement. Other than to say it is not good.

A: "I don't like the kitchen."
B: "You know, it's not the best kitchen, but it works."
A: "You like the entire house and you think the entire house is good."
B: "When did I say anything about the house? We're talking about the kitchen."
A: "You can't separate the two: the kitchen is an integral part of the house."
B: "First, I don't think the kitchen is an integral part of the house...the house can exist without it. Second, I don't like the house overall, there are many rooms that I don't like. Third, but that doesn't matter because we were talking about the kitchen."


A: "Ehh...young American boys, always making comparisons and analogies where none exist."

[George S.]

Is it a particular thing in the FA that you don't like & what is it.
Visan macedonians are used to being screwed all the time the albanians are nothing new they just want to take our land.Vicsan go to the specific thing of the FA i don't like this or i like that & give a reason as to why??

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

A: "I don't like the kitchen."
B: "You know, it's not the best kitchen, but it works."
A: "You like the entire house and you think the entire house is good."
B: "When did I say anything about the house? We're talking about the kitchen."
A: "You can't separate the two: the kitchen is an integral part of the house."
B: "First, I don't think the kitchen is an integral part of the house...the house can exist without it. Second, I don't like the house overall, there are many rooms that I don't like. Third, but that doesn't matter because we were talking about the kitchen."


A: "Ehh...young American boys, always making comparisons and analogies where none exist."

vicsinad, I don't see a reference to kitchens in the Framework Agreement. I think you are confusing some kind of "everybody hold hands and feel good" thing with the devil in the detail of the Framework Agreement. So, please ignore the "vibe" or intent of the FA and actually comment on precisely what you don't like about it. Because you have previously stated the ethnic Albanian right of veto "only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights."

So, aside from liking kitchens and liking the fact that ethnic Albanians are only being able to veto anything Macedonians wish to do with something as trivial and insignificant as ethnicity and culture. What exactly don't you like about the Framework Agreement? You're digging a deep hole for yourself by avoiding this repeated question for the 100th time.