United Macedonia Diaspora

[blackcactus]

Originally Posted by Dzog

I have had enough of the divisiveness within the Macedonian diaspora. Disputes between UMD and other parties, disputes between churches, disputes between internet forums - it is absolute bullshit and the primary reason why I steer clear from affiliation of any kind. All I see is people pushing their own agendas veiled by a seemingly genuine concern for Macedonian issues. Rather than blindly following one organisation, one party or one forum, open your mind, do some independent reading and end the stupidity .

Thank you, it needed to be said

I respect peoples conviction but it does look like we have been cannibalizing each other and our cause

It saddens me to see Macedonians fighting each other

If all you do is harshly criticize without giving back in a positive constructive way, you are part of the problem

[Dzog]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

I disagree that no political issue is been discussed in relation to UMD. In fact, I think one of the most cirtical issues is been discussed and that is of two opposing visions for Macedonia. UMD has taken the brunt of it because it promotes itself as a voice for the diaspora and supports one of those two visions. Unfortunately for them, a vast majority of the diaspora (particularly in Australia) vehemently oppose the 'UMD' vision and support the opposing vision for Macedonia. Look a little deeper into the whole 'UMD' issue and beyond the garbage, and you'll find that this issue (not UMD) is one of the most critical of all for Macedonia.

As for "vendettas", like I said, you have to take the good with the bad in an open and democratic society.

PS. I've been meaning to respond to you re our discussion on the constitution and will do so shortly - I'm still researching something in relation to it.

That is exactly what I want others to realise too.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Dzog

That is exactly what I want others to realise too.

Seeing as we're in agreement, logic brings us to the final question (rhetorical) - which vision for Macedonia do you support, how will you promote that vision and how will you react to those who consistently push an agenda that is in direct opposition to your vision, while purporting that they are actually in agreement with your vision?

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Dzog

Risto,

It is a good point you make, but these organisations are only influential (in a positive sense) if the board members can put aside their personal agendas and aspirations in favour of the organisation's ambitions.

Agreed. So once you have determined and agreed to an organisation's ambitions, you can put these ambitions ahead of personal agendas and aspirations.

I asked the UMD in an email if it would embrace the Macedonian Cause as defined in this forum. The UMD replied to my email in the following fashion:

We thank you for your e-mail and the opportunity to inform you about our mission and policy. UMD President Metodija A. Koloski has made me aware he has tried to contact you regarding this matter. He will be in Australia for the entire month of February to meet with the Macedonian community.

The United Macedonian Diaspora addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world.

As made public on UMD's website and through countless public appearances, media statements, and written documents, UMD's main goals are to foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause. We work to promote our historical, spiritual and cultural heritage while advancing the Macedonian tradition within the framework of various advocacy, educational, and charitable programs.

Our objectives include, but are not limited to, safeguarding the rights of Macedonians around the world; strengthening unity among the Macedonian Diaspora; acting with and on behalf of Macedonian communities before governmental and international bodies; cooperating with the international community, promoting the universal ideas of peace, freedom, self-determination, and equality.

UMD takes seriously its mission. Per UMD’s mission, UMD has rigorously defended Macedonian interests through various media, including educational advocacy of elected officials, charitable efforts, and socio-cultural events. UMD’s stance on the recognition and support of the constitutional and ancestral name is unequivocal. For issues of clarity, UMD categorically rejects any and all changes imposed or otherwise, and will always refer to the Republic of Macedonia, Macedonians, and the Macedonian language as such.

Additionally, UMD, through its actions has raised awareness and advocated for the resolution of all human rights issues facing Macedonians in the Balkans and around the world.

The text above looks great. And would sit quite well if there was no inconsistency coming from the leader.

It wants to advance all Macedonian people's causes and addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world. This is great stuff!

But unfortunately there is doubt about the UMD's ambitions.
We think the Macedonian Cause is a great way to bind organisations into an acceptable way of thinking.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Buktop

My opinion about joining under the temporary name into the EU and NATO would be just that, temporary, until a sufficient number of countries had recognized Macedonia and we could comfortably overthrow the ruling at the UN.

Buktop, changing from one temporary name (current acronym) to another ('democratic') and then, another one, again? What are we, a banana state? Do you really think after changing names multiple times for international organisations, the final 'acceptable' compromise will be (Republic of) Macedonia?

I think you're smarter than that, but because the lines have been drawn you feel the need to defend Meto's viewpoint.

[indigen]

По вчерашното изгласување на седмиот амандман во Собранието на Република Македонија

МПЦ посрамотена и понижена од македонски пратеници!

Ова што се изгласа за промена на чл.19 од Уставот на Република Македонија, е само потврда на националното и духовното отпадништво на овие, за жал, само со име македонски народни избраници


Мирослав СПИРОВСКИ

МАКЕДОНСКАТА православна црква, канонската наследничка и продолжителка на 2000 години древното православие во Македонија, на славната Светиклиментова Охридска архиепископија и на духовно-националниот идентитет на македонскиот народ и на Македонија, се чувствува посрамотена и понижена по вчерашното изгласување на седмиот нацрт-амандман од страна на пратеници-Македонци во македонскиот парламент, со што Црквата со апостолски корени ја изедначија со Исламската и со други верски заедници во државава. Вакви беа вчерашните реакции во сите епархии на МПЦ по изгласувањето на нацрт-амандманот со кој се бара промена на членот 19 од Уставот на Република Македонија. Официјалните претставници на епархиите ни рекоа дека Македонската православна црква во своите храмови јавно ќе ги објави имињата на сите пратеници-Македонци кои го дале својот глас за "срамниот нацрт-амандман", за да бидат на увид на народот.

Поглаварот на Македонската православна црква Неговото блаженство архиепископот охридски и македонски господин господин Стефан ексклузивно за "Нова Македонија" изјави:

- По сите случувања од средината на февруари до денес, по Танушевци, Тетовско Кале, Липково, Арачиново, по теророт, насилствата, киднапирањата, силувањата, по палежот и грабежот, по етничкото чистење, по жртвите и ранувањата и по сето однесување на најодговорните од државниот врв, вклучувајќи ги, еве, и пратениците, кои со промената на Преамбулата и со прифаќањето речиси на се што е предложено во Рамковниот договор, а се однесува на Уставот на Република Македонија, на македонската држава и народ - вреди ли да се коментира?

Ако чувствувам жал и болка по Лешочкиот манастир и по оштетените фрески во Матејче и другите светињи, продолжи Неговото блаженство, за кои се знае кој ги направи тие невидени злодела, ова што се изгласа за промена на чл.19 од Уставот на Република Македонија, е само потврда на националната и духовната апостазија (отпадништво-з.н.) на овие, за жал, само со име македонски народни избраници, кои во континуитет, со мал исклучок, гласаат како одродени и невидени богоборци. До таа мера да се биде без достоинство, без национална и духовна свест, да се биде таков послушник на штета на својот народ, земја и Црква, е неспоредливо со сите најлоши и најтрагични примери од нашата историја. Сигурно некој нов Прличев ќе ги овековечи и нив како стреите на Бујар Лигдо и Станче Беј и другите, и овие соучесници во рушењето на македонските национални и духовни вредности, рече архиепископот г.г. Стефан.

[....]

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/def...StID=2551&pR=1

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Clearly, it can easily be deduced that the FA was/is more destructive to the Macedonian national cause (existence) than some care (or are able) to admit.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Agreed. So once you have determined and agreed to an organisation's ambitions, you can put these ambitions ahead of personal agendas and aspirations.

I asked the UMD in an email if it would embrace the Macedonian Cause as defined in this forum. The UMD replied to my email in the following fashion:



The text above looks great. And would sit quite well if there was no inconsistency coming from the leader.

It wants to advance all Macedonian people's causes and addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world. This is great stuff!

But unfortunately there is doubt about the UMD's ambitions.
We think the Macedonian Cause is a great way to bind organisations into an acceptable way of thinking.

It seems that UMD couldn't even give a simple YES or NO or provide an explanation of points it did not agree with and why.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Dzog

Edit: I just watched the interview and I think Mr Koloski categorically rejects any further compromise. Although he does mention a different identifier ("Democratic") as being more acceptable than FYROM or what has been offered for international use only, I don't think this qualifies as advocacy for a name change.

Ok, so in all your claims of objectivity you are still taking a subjective stance. Were it anybody else in the world making this statement, where you don't have an interest in the matter, you would see his words for what they are.

I am becoming rather tired of having to re-post the same analysis on this dispicable interview of Meto's, and I have had it with certain people here who read only what they want to see. So, I will do it again for the last time:

(1) We feel that perhaps a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

Here he advocates for a name other than (Republic of) Macedonia - Anybody that doesn't consider this an advocacy for a name change is lying to themselves or has an agenda.

(2) I think that a name should be found and our organization believes that a name should be found that is acceptable to both parties for bilateral reference

Here he clearly advocates for a bilateral name. This is 2 names other than the (Republic of) Macedonia that he has advocated for, for 2 different uses.

(3) I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable to the Macedonian people nor the Macedonian nation

Here he is basically saying, so long as it is not for the UN, EU, NATO or Greece, the (Republic of) Macedonia is sufficient.

Don't kid yourselves for Christ's sake, any person reading or listening to his interview will notice that Meto is basically proposing 3 names. Either that, or Meto himself doesn't know what he is rambling on about in the interview.

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable

Sorry brother, that is a weak point for an argument in this case. If we were to apply the same principle to the following sentence from Meto: I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable - One could then point out that Meto isn't even 100% sure if a compromise is unacceptable, he only thinks it is unacceptable. See what I mean?

Some people think Meto is a good bloke, some people think he isn't so good, others think he is an incapable fool. Put all personal sentiments about the guy aside, and see this interview for what it is. I don't care what his press releases say now, at the time of the ZMR interview, Meto advocates and supports a name change. His reasons are irrelevant (unless he chooses to explain them and acknowledge the error, which he hasn't), what stands out above all is the fact that he suggested a name other than the (Republic of) Macedonia for international and bilateral use.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by TajnataKniga

again more threads about UMD.

How about you make one about the psuedo-identity that you have adopted for yourself, and argue the case for Democratic Macedonians?

[Dzog]

Soldier of Macedon,

For me, to advocate a name change he would have to say and emphasise that Macedonia must change its constitutional name. He barely does this. In this interview he says that Macedonians should have the right to the Constitutional name they chose upon independence, but that his organisation would accept a politically modified name for bilateral relations with Greece and entry into international organisations. If you feel that this is advocating a wholesale name change then so be it, but don't for a second think that your interpretation is objective, particularly when you clearly have some beef with the UMD.

Now, please explain how I am taking a subjective stance? You don't know who I am nor what I believe in to able to make this kind of judgment. However, if you must, I am of the opinion that there should be absolutely no change to the Constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia and that entry to any international organisations should be on the basis of this name and this name only. As for bilateral relations Greece, I could not care less what they call us as long as the matter is settled. I am not a member of any Macedonian organisations and not affiliated with any group or political party. I may exaggerate certain personal aspects on internet forums, but I have gladly introduced myself to anyone who has done the same. You can cast your stones now.