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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    Victor if you answered the questions you would have got 10 out of 10 .So answer the questions that you were asked.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
      When did I say the OFA isn't that bad?
      When you said things like:
      Originally posted by vicsinad
      "Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA."
      and this:
      Originally posted by vicsinad
      "To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.
      You have not given any other views about the Framework Agreement. Other than to say it is not good. Yet the only detail you have provided suggests it isn't bad.

      To remove any room for confusion, why not simply state what you do not like about the Framework Agreement? We aren't playing a game of strategy here. Just spell it out, because you haven't yet.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post

        You have not given any other views about the Framework Agreement. Other than to say it is not good.
        A: "I don't like the kitchen."
        B: "You know, it's not the best kitchen, but it works."
        A: "You like the entire house and you think the entire house is good."
        B: "When did I say anything about the house? We're talking about the kitchen."
        A: "You can't separate the two: the kitchen is an integral part of the house."
        B: "First, I don't think the kitchen is an integral part of the house...the house can exist without it. Second, I don't like the house overall, there are many rooms that I don't like. Third, but that doesn't matter because we were talking about the kitchen."


        A: "Ehh...young American boys, always making comparisons and analogies where none exist."

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          Is it a particular thing in the FA that you don't like & what is it.
          Visan macedonians are used to being screwed all the time the albanians are nothing new they just want to take our land.Vicsan go to the specific thing of the FA i don't like this or i like that & give a reason as to why??
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            A: "I don't like the kitchen."
            B: "You know, it's not the best kitchen, but it works."
            A: "You like the entire house and you think the entire house is good."
            B: "When did I say anything about the house? We're talking about the kitchen."
            A: "You can't separate the two: the kitchen is an integral part of the house."
            B: "First, I don't think the kitchen is an integral part of the house...the house can exist without it. Second, I don't like the house overall, there are many rooms that I don't like. Third, but that doesn't matter because we were talking about the kitchen."


            A: "Ehh...young American boys, always making comparisons and analogies where none exist."
            vicsinad, I don't see a reference to kitchens in the Framework Agreement. I think you are confusing some kind of "everybody hold hands and feel good" thing with the devil in the detail of the Framework Agreement. So, please ignore the "vibe" or intent of the FA and actually comment on precisely what you don't like about it. Because you have previously stated the ethnic Albanian right of veto "only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights."

            So, aside from liking kitchens and liking the fact that ethnic Albanians are only being able to veto anything Macedonians wish to do with something as trivial and insignificant as ethnicity and culture. What exactly don't you like about the Framework Agreement? You're digging a deep hole for yourself by avoiding this repeated question for the 100th time.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              Question for vicsinad.You said you are macedonian & you never been to macedonia.Are both your parents macedonian?Where are you getting your information regards the albanians in macedonia.?
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Victor,

                You still have not answered the question of why you believe that Albanians should have greater voting rights than the Macedonians and all other minorities. According to your logic, the Badinter Principle is needed to protect "minority rights". Well, what about the "rights" of other smaller minorities, who according to your logic, would need greater protection than the Albanians. What is so special about the Albanians in Macedonia that you believe their vote should be greater than the vote of both the Macedonians and other minorities put together?

                Further, what "rights" do you think should be protected by the Badinter Principle?

                I've already had to ask these questions over and over again and you seem to think that you can avoid them. This will be the last time I ask - if you think you can keep posting rubbish without actually addressing these questions, think again.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  Inm yu opinion the albanianswere overprotected allready.Think about it the albanians are protected by being included in the macedonian constitution,also Under the un protection by
                  macedonia being a signatory to the protection of minorities.This was well before 2001.Also the council of europe also looks after minorities rights.What Macedonia didn't look after the rights of minorities so we have to bring in the FA & the badinter principle.Fact is they were allready well looked after further..The FA & the badinter principle was to fuck up macedonia.It doesn;t take care of whether a minority is being looked asfter or not.
                  Last edited by George S.; 10-28-2012, 05:40 AM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                    Victor,


                    I've already had to ask these questions over and over again and you seem to think that you can avoid them. This will be the last time I ask - if you think you can keep posting rubbish without actually addressing these questions, think again.
                    Tom,

                    I already had to repeat -- over and over again -- why I'm no longer responding to you on the issue. If you think you're going to get anywhere with your approach and attitude, think again.

                    But which rule you going to get me on? There seems to be none about "question avoidance" so

                    (6) Systematic anti-Macedonian propaganda and rhetoric are not permitted.

                    Seems the most plausible, because anything that you don't agree with related to Macedonian is anti-Macedonian.

                    or...

                    (8) Continual posting of messages in threads with the sole purpose of deviating from the initial topics with the use of unrelated and unnecessary information is not permitted.

                    Wait...now you can get yourself on this one. After all, you purposefully changed direction from your past conflicting statements about the UMD and how your inability to reconcile your actions as a MTO member toward UMD with MTO's principle of unity. Now it's nothing about UMD. You turned the flagship tune thread into something completely different. Time for a holiday!

                    Or this one...

                    (10) Despite the possibility of some conversations and debates becoming heated, extreme abuse and/or racism, vulgar language and/or terminology, threats, revelation of personal information about others, harassment, and other such behavior will not be permitted. If deemed necessary all relevant information including member details will be reported to the appropriate authorities for investigation which may result in legal action. Members are encouraged to immediately report any post and/or member to Administration if they feel that these rules have not been abided by.

                    You love calling me a racist! And, you use a lot of other demeaning language...luckily for you there's nothing in here about respect, or else you'd have been gone a long time ago.


                    (12) Compulsive and deliberate lies, irrespective of the topic, are not permitted.

                    Ahh, this one. I mean, I lied about...well, couldn't figure it out so Risto called it amnesia...but then when I called him out for not comprehending my posts, it was we'll just ignore it. So...let's forget about this one.

                    Can't wait to read your decision!
                    Last edited by vicsinad; 10-28-2012, 08:03 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                      Tom,

                      I already had to repeat -- over and over again -- why I'm no longer responding to you on the issue. If you think you're going to get anywhere with your approach and attitude, think again.
                      You haven't responded to these questions and you refuse to do so simply because you will show yourself for the hypocrite that you are. You are not interested in protecting minority "rights", you are interested in protecting Albanian "rights".

                      You will show clearly that you support the anti-Macedonian Badinter Principle, knowing full well that it is an anti-Macedonian mechanism designed solely to protect special privileges for the Albanian community only.

                      Finally, you are not interested in addressing these questions because it will become apparent that you do in fact support the special privileges in the FA (after claiming you do not).

                      Its become more than apparent that you support the FA in its entirety, as you are unable to tell us why only the Albanians should benefit from the Badinter Principle (as opposed to all minorities - which you claim was your philosophical underpinning for supporting the Badinter Principle) and what these evasive "rights" it is that you would like to see the Badinter Principle applied to (you supposedly do not support the special privileges provided under the FA but cannot name which "rights" you would support).
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        You haven't responded to these questions and you refuse to do so simply because you will show yourself for the hypocrite that you are. You are not interested in protecting minority "rights", you are interested in protecting Albanian "rights".

                        You will show clearly that you support the anti-Macedonian Badinter Principle, knowing full well that it is an anti-Macedonian mechanism designed solely to protect special privileges for the Albanian community only.

                        Finally, you are not interested in addressing these questions because it will become apparent that you do in fact support the special privileges in the FA (after claiming you do not).

                        Its become more than apparent that you support the FA in its entirety, as you are unable to tell us why only the Albanians should benefit from the Badinter Principle (as opposed to all minorities - which you claim was your philosophical underpinning for supporting the Badinter Principle) and what these evasive "rights" it is that you would like to see the Badinter Principle applied to (you supposedly do not support the special privileges provided under the FA but cannot name which "rights" you would support).
                        Excellent off-the-mark analysis and conclusion.

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8531

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          Excellent off-the-mark analysis and conclusion.
                          You're failure to address those questions in combination with your rants can only lead to that conclusion. Worm as much as you can while you can Victor, you won't be doing it for long.
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            There is no need to say that you would appreciate my honesty because I have been nothing but honest in all of my responses.

                            Personally, I don't believe in the nation-state. That applies not only to the countries of the Balkans, but all countries. Rather, I prefer strong local civic engagement and control...I prefer the emphasis be on, and control given to, communities. I believe that communities are best capable, and most willing, to protect the interests, needs and rights of their populations. At the same time, I understand the complex situation of Macedonia being surrounded by countries that are still dominated by elements of nationalism. Thus, there are obvious conflicts between what I want, what can be reasonably or realistically expected to happen, and what the democratic process would actually result in.
                            Interesting concept, taking into account the seemingly grandiose scope of this vision, since this is a forum regarding Macedonia, I hope you don’t mind if we restrict your vision specifically to the region of Europe for now. So under this vision, what would constitute a “community”?, what determines each “communities” boundaries? , do these “communities” have a right to defend these boundaries?, are these “communities” sovereign in nature?, does each “community” operate completely autonomous or within a federal construct?, what form of political system is to govern these “communities”?, again will governance come from some sort of central council?, if so who is to make up this council and how will it function?, will each community perhaps have a nominated representative in this council?, Who will determine the laws of these “communities”?, will it be a one law for all or does each “community” abide by their own individual laws?, I’m highly interested in the details of the plans you have thought of for administering this vision of a union between the possible, I don’t know say three hundred odd thousand “communities” of Europe, particularly since this vision of yours would likely include my “community”.
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              Vixsind you say you don't beleive in a nation state,you are being TWO faced here why don't you come out with it you don't beleive in a MACEDONIAN nation Statew but when the albanians completely take over you beleive in a Albanian nation state.That's why the albanians won't cooperate THEY WANT THEIR OWN NATION & STATE within macedonia.
                              I said before to you to answer tom's questions directly & stop beating around the bush.USE specifics rather than generalise.Also think what you have been aske before you write as you are giving people the shits by doing that.
                              Last edited by George S.; 10-28-2012, 03:08 PM. Reason: ed
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                                Excellent off-the-mark analysis and conclusion.
                                Hardly off-the-mark. It represents an accumulation of knowledge about you and also stems from your inability to adequately explain your stance on matter as critical as the Framework Agreement.

                                Set it right vicsinad. I dare you to do it without contradicting yourself.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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