Racism from Greece and Greeks

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    See you admit that nothing happened to the macedonians as compared to the macedonians you are kidding yourself again.What is it that the turks done to you apart from the population exchanges.What attrocities did the turks committ on you.Also in all your argument you haven't presented one argument if THe macedonians committed any thing against' the greeks there aren't any.So you feel you don't have to apologise for anything greece has done Why ?& why not.& don't bullshit this time.
    Last edited by George S.; 06-29-2011, 05:22 AM. Reason: edit
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      Voltron can you stick facts & evidence of attrocities committed by greece ,committed by macedonia.committed by serbia or by the turks,or by bulgaria.As you can see ottoman has the decency to come out to apologise for the 1950's rapes etc.Whenare you greeks going to apologise for committing attrocities on the turks & macedonians it's only fair to do so.
      Last edited by George S.; 06-29-2011, 05:21 AM. Reason: ed
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Bill77
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 4545

        Originally posted by Voltron View Post
        Well, we never received an apology and considering the circumstances it was a lot worse than what happened in Macedonia. We never had the luxury to walk away with whatever belongings we had. We had to be smuggled out.
        Just like my family from the fascist Greeks. So now you can apologise. I'm waiting.


        @George.
        Bravo bre georgi.....ebavaj mu go umo. go zbrlaje chojeko lol
        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

        Comment

        • Voltron
          Banned
          • Jan 2011
          • 1362

          While we are at it, how about we get Onur in here as well and have a group hug and make up.

          Comment

          • George S.
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 10116

            tAka trba bill mislat ti je ke ne zaebavaat.Turcite priznavaat a tie ne mozat da se izvinaat.
            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
            GOTSE DELCEV

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              Votron they are admitting regardless you look at ottoman doing it & onur has done it many times. on this forum.WE are waiting on you guys it's better that it's reconciled & we can get on with closure.Does'nt it make sense.Yo apologise to the turks ,the turks apologise to you & the greeks apoligise to the macedonians.It's as simple as that.Can you explain to me as neighbours we have to hate each other.Why can't we love each other( i don't mean sex).You know being sorry goes a long way all i'm seeing so far the turks are making the move & we had a member sir george making the right move.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                It sounds to me like the huge exodus from macedonia that you went through voltron.I't is not a nice thing to happen.One of The worst thing that has happened to man is mans inhumanity to man.The fact that you have had it occur to your family we can emphasize
                it has happened to macedonian people & relatives.We are all supposed to be living in a civilised world & not committ attrocities on each other.
                Voltron you have to admit that macedonia has not committed any attrocities on their neighbours.I think that's partial proof of whom we are.We are more civilised than the others i hate to boast but we just do not like doing attrocities to our neighbours.Some one asked the question why did we get to be annihilated in the first place.
                Well it's a start voltron we can have a thread like this where we can admit the attrocities & speak your mind.
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  George, like I said before your Ok.
                  But why would I apologize to a Turk ? You should then apologize to me.
                  Thats nuts. We have to put things in perspective, what the Turks did is genocide. Full stop. That is acknowledged all over the world. What happened to Macedonians was not genocide. Let the numbers do the talking for you. I will drop dead before I apologize to a Turk. As far as an apology to Macedonians, OK, if that is what will make this world a better place. Im Sorry.

                  Comment

                  • julie
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 3869

                    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                    Well, we never received an apology and considering the circumstances it was a lot worse than what happened in Macedonia. We never had the luxury to walk away with whatever belongings we had. We had to be smuggled out.
                    when did the Aegean Macedonians receive an apology from Greece?????
                    What belongings??????????????Their homes were taken from them you idiot, my maternal family had the clothes they were wearing nothing more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                    and they did not suffer as bad??????????

                    Get lost, you are really starting to piss me off
                    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                    Comment

                    • vojnik
                      Member
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 307

                      And Voltron your arguments are absurd

                      Comment

                      • Voltron
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2011
                        • 1362

                        Julie, you care to answer my question that I asked George ? How many Macs are left in Greece and how many of us are in Turkey ? Do you not think an apology is owed to us ?

                        Yes, their homes were taken away as were mine Julie. This is a sick debate we are in right now. Suffereing is suffereing and one's suffereing is not paramount to anothers.
                        Just be thankfull there are more Macedonians in Greece than there are Greeks in Turkey.
                        I really dont know in how many different ways I have to explain this to you.

                        Comment

                        • julie
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 3869

                          As you say Voltron, suffering is suffering.
                          I am not going to repeat my family's suffering, am sure you have read it all.
                          It does not matter whether one is Macedonian, Greek, Turkish, or martian, whatever, there is no more or less, there is suffering.
                          I dont know how many Macedonians are in Aegean Macedonia right now, but the first step is in recognition. And in the rights we all have as human beings, are basic god given right, that we are all equals, that we have the right to speak our own language, the ability to bury our dead, and not have the trauma of being turned away because one was as a small infant one if the "child refugees", without a passport or citizenship, and there fore considered an alien. Never to be able to return to their birthplace.
                          The atrocities committed are dreadful and the enforced assimilation , goes against humanity, especially considering the land being divided, neing renamed for Gods sake.

                          I will let George answer the question you have asked of him,
                          Was your family one of the families that had the population exchange to decrease Macedonian numbers in the Aegean Voltron?
                          I dont know enough about the treatment of Greeks in Turkey post the civil war, but if you had to endure name changes, and were forbidden to speak your language and were not recognised as a minority, then you deserve an apology , just like the Aegean Macedonians do today, who still suffer the traumatic effects, of their lives
                          To see ones parent still crying , some 60 years later, and growing up hearing about it, from aunts, uncles and still traumatised parents, that is dreadful. Because it harbors pain in the offspring
                          My mums sister overseas , at the age of 4 was one of those refugee children. She aches to go to her birthplace, her home, and has given up trying anymore. She is 67 years old, and will die like that, she cannot even go over the border for an hour to visit her home. There are people that were divided as youngsters that have been turned away as recently as few months ago, to bury their dead parents they have never seen as an adult. An apology, does not heal the pain for these people, but recognition needs to happen. Greece is the only country in the entire world that does not recognise any minority within the confines of its borders. Greece is in big shit now with their corruption and greed, financially crippled, and its karmic.
                          "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                          Comment

                          • Voltron
                            Banned
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 1362

                            Originally posted by julie View Post
                            As you say Voltron, suffering is suffering.
                            I am not going to repeat my family's suffering, am sure you have read it all.
                            It does not matter whether one is Macedonian, Greek, Turkish, or martian, whatever, there is no more or less, there is suffering.
                            I dont know how many Macedonians are in Aegean Macedonia right now, but the first step is in recognition. And in the rights we all have as human beings, are basic god given right, that we are all equals, that we have the right to speak our own language, the ability to bury our dead, and not have the trauma of being turned away because one was as a small infant one if the "child refugees", without a passport or citizenship, and there fore considered an alien. Never to be able to return to their birthplace.
                            The atrocities committed are dreadful and the enforced assimilation , goes against humanity, especially considering the land being divided, neing renamed for Gods sake.

                            I will let George answer the question you have asked of him,
                            Was your family one of the families that had the population exchange to decrease Macedonian numbers in the Aegean Voltron?
                            I dont know enough about the treatment of Greeks in Turkey post the civil war, but if you had to endure name changes, and were forbidden to speak your language and were not recognised as a minority, then you deserve an apology , just like the Aegean Macedonians do today, who still suffer the traumatic effects, of their lives
                            To see ones parent still crying , some 60 years later, and growing up hearing about it, from aunts, uncles and still traumatised parents, that is dreadful. Because it harbors pain in the offspring
                            My mums sister overseas , at the age of 4 was one of those refugee children. She aches to go to her birthplace, her home, and has given up trying anymore. She is 67 years old, and will die like that, she cannot even go over the border for an hour to visit her home. There are people that were divided as youngsters that have been turned away as recently as few months ago, to bury their dead parents they have never seen as an adult. An apology, does not heal the pain for these people, but recognition needs to happen. Greece is the only country in the entire world that does not recognise any minority within the confines of its borders. Greece is in big shit now with their corruption and greed, financially crippled, and its karmic.
                            I am aware of what your family went through and I feel really bad about it. It is hard and by all means its hard to get through the post traumatic stress over it. Even years after.

                            I agree with eveything you said except the minority issue. You dont need minority status to express your culture as you mentioned. The minority status is political tool used to segregate people against each other. Whatever problems we may have now, just know that it is political in nature, nothing more than that.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              Voltron how would i know the exact no of people in the agean macedonia.But from what i have read it's about 1 million.There's so much fakery going on with the greek govt that it's not really transparent.I know for a fact that macedonians prior to 1913 were over 2million people & that greeks were 10% of the population.After the population exchanges like a million were taken out & in its place were put the prosfeges the greek (turks).
                              See your argument does not hold water that if only a small amount of macedonians were affected by greek attrocities.The greeks in 1913 took the whole of the agean of 2million people that's a lot of people & enmasse they committed attrocities on them.You can't say offhand like that that you suffered more & the macedonians suffered less.How do you measure it.
                              The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukush (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukush, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
                              About 4,000 refugees from Kukush had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serres, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Ingrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.
                              Last edited by George S.; 06-29-2011, 10:28 AM.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.
                                On March 1, 1913, the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg sent a memorandum on the independence of Macedonia to the conference of Great Powers in London, along with a geographical-ethnic map of Macedonia made by Dimitrija Chupovski. "Europe is about to make the same mistake as in 1878. Instead of Macedonia being proclaimed an independent state, its liberators decided to divide it among themselves... The Macedonians have gained the right to self-determination through their recent history... A horrible terror now reigns in Macedonia-there are no limits to the 'freedom' of the allies. Not a single Macedonian has the right to travel outside Macedonia and go abroad to protest to the European states. Whoever attempts to do that is either killed or imprisoned. The allied armies have enclosed Macedonia in an iron grip."
                                "The Macedonian people needs:
                                "One, Macedonia to remain an individual, indivisible, independent Balkan state within its geographic, ethnographic, historical and economic-political borders; and
                                "Two, that, on the basis of a general election, a Macedonian people's assembly be convened in Thessaloniki as soon as possible, to work out the internal organization of the state and define its relations with the neighboring countries."

                                On April 21, 1913, in the St. Petersburg newspaper Slavjanin (A Slav), D.Chupovski, writing under the pseudonym Upravda, published the article "The Macedonian State" in which he predicted:
                                "...Despite vigorous opposition by the Macedonians themselves, the partition of Macedonia will undoubtedly lead to internecine blood-shedding among the allies... The Balkan Peninsula is too small for several greater-state ideals to coexist. Only a federal state constituted of all Balkan peoples, in which Macedonia will be included on an equal footing as an indivisible state, independent in its internal affairs-only such a federation that can provide peaceful coexistence and progress of the Balkan peoples!"
                                On June 7, 1913, a second memorandum of the Macedonians was sent to the governments and peoples of the combatants of the Balkan Wars, stating that "in the name of natural right, in the name of history ... Macedonia is inhabited by a homogeneous population having its own history, and hence the right to self-determination. Macedonia is to be an independent state, within its natural borders. The Macedonian state is to be a separate equal unit of the Balkan League, with its own church established on the foundations of the ancient Ohrid archbishopric", requesting that a people's representative body be convened in Thessaloniki. This memorandum was signed by members of the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg.
                                Despite the obvious fact that in the partition of Macedonia a nation had been divided, in the Paris Peace Conferences (June-September, 1919) the Great Powers, protecting their own interests, confirmed with minor alterations only the decisions of the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest.
                                During the conference the Macedonian issue, in one form or another, confronted any possible settlement of World War One's Balkan front. Three proposals were placed before the Committee on the Formation of New States. On June 10, 1919, the Italian delegation proposed that Macedonia be given the status of autonomy within the framework of the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
                                Macedonia would possess an autonomous assembly and the Macedonian governor would be responsible to it, although he would be appointed by the Yugoslav government. Opposed by the French delegation, at the following session of the committee the Italian representative changed the proposal on political autonomy of Macedonia and reduced it to a proposal for administrative self-management with a central council in Bitola.
                                The French delegation, protecting the interests of the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (viewed as a key ally in the region) categorically opposed any kind of autonomy for Macedonia and proposed that the Macedonian Question be discussed in terms of minority issues. The treaties of protection for minorities would be a sufficient guarantee of freedom and protection for the population of Macedonia. The British delegation offered in turn a proposal for special control of Macedonia by the League of Nations, in order to reinforce minority guarantees. The insistence of France that the Macedonian Question be removed from the agenda ended culminated in the statement of its delegation that "the Macedonians do not have a clearly defined nationality and the population is divided into parties which, in view of the events, change their character." Supporting the request by Pashich that the new state, the Kingdom of the SCS (Serbs, Croats and Slovenes) be provided with "a strategic border", France upheld Yugoslav control of the region, and any protection for the Macedonians must be limited to the framework of minority rights in general.
                                Unfortunately, the Great Powers had no interest in the voice of the Macedonian-the partition of Macedonia had already been accomplished, and no power seriously endorsed revision of the partition. Accordingly, Greece maintained its lion's share of Macedonian territory, some 35,169 square kilometers; the Kingdom of the SCS retained 25,774 square kilometers; and Bulgaria maintained, after minor revision, 6,798 square kilometers.
                                While before the Ilinden Uprising there were an estimated two and a half million people in Macedonia, after the Paris Peace Conference the totaled populations of Aegean (Greek); Pirin (Bulgarian) and Vardar (Yugoslav) Macedonia was 2,028,000, hardly past the two million mark. War and economic collapse had reduced the population of Macedonia by 270,000 people, a negative growth most visible in Aegean Macedonia. In 1896, there were 681,451 inhabitants of Aegean Macedonia, 354,406 of them ethnic Macedonians, 68,000 Greek, 195,000 Turks and about 66,000 of other nationalities. In 1920, on this same territory, the population had dwindled to 584,294 inhabitants, with a Macedonian population reduced by 46,763 to a total of 307,643 and a Greek population of 107,437, an increase of 38,927.
                                In vain were protests, applications, declarations, memorandums or personal appeals by representatives of the Macedonian people to the Peace Conference, the governments of the Great Powers, or to Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece that the Macedonian people should not be considered "an amorphous mass", that "the spiritual unity" of the Macedonian should be respected and Macedonia raised to the rank of "an independent state.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

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