United Macedonia Diaspora

[Phoenix]

By the way Vangelovski, you need to start separating the comments of board members, and official UMD policy. That is a very simple thing that you need to understand.

WTF are you smoking Buktop...?

[Phoenix]

Thanks RtG. There is no doubt that we find ourselves in a situation that, in this day and age, no nation deserves to be in, but, I fail to see how these appendages can be construed as treacherous for neither implies any racial or geographical meaning.

I thought you answered the question yourself brother...

Its the act of 'imposing' something against our wishes that is totally unacceptable, regardless of the perceived connotation of the said 'appendage'...whether it be construed harmless or otherwise...it shouldn't be 'acceptable' to us and we must fight any adoption of it.

To accept such an appendage would create the grounds to entertain other 'acceptances' and where does one put a stop to it once the ball starts rolling...?

[Buktop]

At least hang the people that influenced policy first.
Where in the USA should we go first?

Start with the US foreign departments.

But are you saying that we should excuse the indifference of those who had the opportunity to prevent capitulation? Are you suggesting that those who could have made a difference, but didn't, are any less culpable than those who played a direct part in the capitulation?

[Buktop]

Buktop, are you serious?

So if Obama and Biden say that America is an illegal occupier in countries all over the world, the American public are supposed to keep those comments separate from the official policy of the American government? You can't be serious. What would people think of them and their integrity, along with that of their administration? Probably the same thing that people think of Meto and the UMD.

What people need to start doing is make these so-called 'leaders' who speak on our behalf in an official capacity, accountable for their own actions and words. Keep em' honest, as we say. I am sure you have seen the Adelaide clip Buktop, again Meto has shown his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix. It's a done deal, he has sunk himself.

First of all you cannot compare the UMD board of directors with the United States government. UMD board decisions are reached by consensus, not by a single person like in the US.

Every person is entitled to an opinion, and while you may have highlighted several which you do not agree with, it is the overall board which votes on the policy and therefor individual opinions are not to be misconstrued as UMD policy.

You have every right to keep em honest, I would just like it to be done in a more constructive manner, not in the way it has transpired. This whole forum has become a UMD witch hunt. The thread about Mr Rann is very disappointing to say the least. It is also very revealing, and I never cease to be amazed at the lengths some go to in the name of "keeping UMD honest" especially when the topic at hand had nothing to do with UMD, but rather having a Macedonian do an interview with a piece of shit.

I saw the Adelaide clips and I have to say you are overreacting, he was justifying his personal acceptance of the Democratic modifier at the time, he was not advocating that the entire diaspora accept it, but that it was more palatable than Yugoslav as a representative term internationally.

[Soldier of Macedon]

First of all you cannot compare the UMD board of directors with the United States government. UMD board decisions are reached by consensus, not by a single person like in the US.

Buktop, your objectivity has suffered in the defence of the UMD, greatly. Are you now saying that all decisions of the US government come from a single person? Help me understand mate.

.......while you may have highlighted several which you do not agree with...

Hang on, I thought you shared my understanding on some of them, you are still of the same opinion, aren't you?

Did you see Meto re-affirming his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix in Adelaide a few days ago?

[Soldier of Macedon]

How could they have made a difference? Did we not go over the circumstances of this event and the 'coincidental' US recognition of Macedonia about the same time?

[blackcactus]

I thought you answered the question yourself brother...

Its the act of 'imposing' something against our wishes that is totally unacceptable, regardless of the perceived connotation of the said 'appendage'...whether it be construed harmless or otherwise...it shouldn't be 'acceptable' to us and we must fight any adoption of it.

To accept such an appendage would create the grounds to entertain other 'acceptances' and where does one put a stop to it once the ball starts rolling...?

Well said Phoenix, only the Macedonians have the right to name their country, their language, themselves.. forced to do otherwise is wrong on so many levels

[Buktop]

Buktop, your objectivity has suffered in the defence of the UMD, greatly. Are you now saying that all decisions of the US government come from a single person? Help me understand mate.

Hang on, I thought you shared my understanding on some of them, you are still of the same opinion, aren't you?

Did you see Meto re-affirming his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix in Adelaide a few days ago?

United states policy is primarily shaped by the president, initiatives are made on his say so. He has a board of advisers, but ultimately he has the final say as to what direction his government takes.

I personally do not support a name change, and I agreed with you that the idea was not something that I could support either, I am still of that same opinion, but that is not to say that Meto cannot have his own opinion, and his own reasoning for reaching that opinion.

See my above post edit, sorry it took me a little while to edit the post.

[Jankovska]

Don't forget the citizens who had a chance to stop it but did nothing... I think we should hang the whole country for being traitors.

How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?

[Buktop]

How could they have made a difference? Did we not go over the circumstances of this event and the 'coincidental' US recognition of Macedonia about the same time?

We went over the circumstances, and we came to the conclusion that if the citizens had valued their rights a bit more, they would have made the right decision and voted in the referendum. You think US recognition persuaded common Macedonians to not vote? The average Macedonian citizen doesn't give a shit what country recognizes them, the 25% of the country that actually got off their asses and voted were the ones who actually stood to lose something, the other 75% were more concerned with SDS taking their jobs (which is a stupid notion to begin with) and the Prime minister Hari Kostov, who threatened to resign, who gives a shit if he would have resigned? Is party allegiance more important than the rights of Macedonians or the territorial integrity of Macedonia? All they had to do was vote to make a difference.

[Bill77]

How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?

Well said Jankovska.

And how can we blame those that are left in the dark and unaware with what hapens behind closed doors. Those that suposedly are aware, how can we blame them when the Mak government and other Mak groups (not naming names) spin and use scare mongering in to accepting situations.

[Buktop]

How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?

Did I say I had a problem with the ones who did? I said I have a problem with the ones who didn't. I wasn't old enough to fight in 2001, did you vote in the 2004 referendum? Was your home town given to the control of Albanians? Does your family now have to learn Albanian just to be able to survive in your home town? Does your family have to worry about discrimination in their own fucking country?

If you didn't vote in the 2004 referendum why didn't you?

[Jankovska]

Don't take that tone with me young man. Macedonia was given to the albanians because the United States of America and the EU gave it to them, not you or me. Orders were given and had to be followed. I do blame Trajkovski and the gov but not the people, everyone went to fight in 2001, but you can not send soldiers to fight but not giving them the right to attack or defend themselves. The West caused it and our gov betrayed us in every way, but whatever you do, stay away from judging the people.
I didn't vote because I was in the UK. My parents wanted to vote but the voting room in the gimnazija was shut. You go and explain to me why?
I will not allow anyone here to bash at the Macedonian people, especially if you don't live in Macedonia. Leve them the hell alone, if you not gonna help them stop blaiming them for everything. Afterall if they all moved away like we did Macedonia would be long gone.
Buktop the Serbs fought for kosovo, did they get to keep it?

[Bratot]

United states policy is primarily shaped by the president, initiatives are made on his say so. He has a board of advisers, but ultimately he has the final say as to what direction his government takes.

You fail to understand that the political figures who are in front of the cameras are just puppets.

[aleksandrov]

You think US recognition persuaded common Macedonians to not vote? The average Macedonian citizen doesn't give a shit what country recognizes them, ...

If that's your view, why do you think the UMD leadership in the US feels a need to constantly stress that the USA is Macedonia's "best friend"?