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  • vicsinad
    Senior Member
    • May 2011
    • 2337

    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
    Zdravo Vicsinad,

    Judging from the comments by some of the forum members, it would appear as though there’s still multiple ways your view may be interpreted, if it is in your interest for Macedonians to come to understand one another, I think some further clarification in this regard would be both appropriate and appreciated, as right now I can’t personally say that this exchange has been overly productive, unless of course that was your intention.

    Hi Tomce,

    Well, I already addressed these questions weeks ago. Albeit, not in a way that was satisfactory to some people; however, my lack of desire to further pursue the issue of the BP is from their initial labeling, judgements and accusations. Which, if anyone were to go back to any conversation I've had with either Tom or Risto over the past few months, you could see where the under-productiveness of these exchanges originates. For example, I was banned from this forum for 7 days for stating my views on the matter. If you want to get at the root of unproductive exchanges, please direct your attention at the MTO.
    Last edited by vicsinad; 10-26-2012, 08:31 AM.

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
      Vic.....i have been sitting on the sideline with this conversation till now. I am so frustrated at your dodging that i had to say something. I am interested in your answer, so please address these questions as i feel its important you do because by avoiding them, we can jump to conclusions regarding your character which is not favourable for you.
      Bill,

      Because I like you for some reason.

      I said this 6 weeks ago:


      "To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.

      This is what the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement actually states:

      "For laws that directly affect culture, use of language, education, personal documentation, and use of
      symbols, the Assembly makes decisions by a majority vote of the Representatives attending, within which
      there must be a majority of the votes of the Representatives attending who claim to belong to the
      communities not in the majority in the population of Macedonia."

      If this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.

      The 25% Albanian vote is only worth more than 75% of the vote when it comes to preventing something (related to culture and ethnicity) from becoming law (keep in mind, as an FYI, in the US, one man can veto what 100 have agreed to). However, if the 25% Albanian vote wants to pass a law that relates to ethnicity or culture, they still need at least one-third of that 75% Macedonian majority to get that in the law; or rather, a majority of the entire Assembly. This safeguards the majority from being ruled by the will of the minority.

      Does this amount to civic inequality? I do not think so. Could there be a better system or process to safeguard everyone's rights while maintaining a true "majority-rule" democracy? Probably, yes. But much of the time, majority-rule and protection of peoples' rights do not necessarily go hand-in-hand."


      In response to that and a irrelevant analogy (in Tom's view) I got remarks from him like this:

      "I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all."

      "No, it means get a basic grasp of the issues for which you want to debate, otherwise you're wasting time, space and promoting anti-Macedonian agenda's."

      And then I basically replied to the accusation that I wasn't addressing issues by stating this:

      "First, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.

      Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power."

      Then Tom pulled his favorite line:

      "But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?"

      So I answered:

      "It's a check to protect the minority from the majority from passing legislation that the minority thinks will harm them. However, the minority still cannot pass any legislation without a majority. Are there other ways to ensure that check? Probably, yes. But this check is not damaging to civic equality."

      Of course, which Tom then continued:

      "If you can't provide a sensible answer, I'm afraid you're going on a holiday. I will not tolerate racism in any form on this forum, particularly by Macedonians who are trying to turn reality inside out and deny the blatantly obvious."

      And then I was banned for stating:

      "I answered your question."

      In reality, I explained why I felt the Badinter Principle, along with its voting system, was not a bad idea. Just because I didn't phrase it in the same way as Tom questioned it, it does not mean I had not answered the question. He just wants me to phrase it his way -- but I will not, because it's not entirely accurate or responsible to do so.

      So Bill, you see, it's very difficult to have a conversation with some people who, off the bat, don't want to have a productive exchange of ideas. That's why I have no desire to engage in further discussion about that particular issue. A) I don't know when I'll get banned; B) I don't want to deal with such negative and unproductive attitudes.

      No one has to agree with these views, and most don't. But I stated them and I addressed the questions.
      Last edited by vicsinad; 10-26-2012, 09:13 AM.

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        Incompetence is not my strong point.
        Just point it out. I ask this because I am quite positive you have not explained anything about these points. Honestly, it is getting tiresome and so reminiscent of my early dialogue with UMD that I swear I must be talking to Meto himself right now.

        Really? If you feel you have explained yourself, then it must have been such a bad job that everyone instantly forgot about it. Try again if you believe you have already. We like to help Macedonians.

        Keep going around in circles if you like. It is tiresome. But if you are being honest here, you should feel compelled to back up your statements. Explain where you disagreed with the Framework Agreement since before we started taking you to task on the matter. You said you had explained it.

        I can certainly see where you placed your faith in the Badinter principle and felt it was an acceptable amplification of rights for ethnic Albanians. I can see it, I'm disgusted with it ... but I can see it. I'm far more interested how someone can believe how the Framework Agreement could be deemed to be flawed given your faith in the Badinter principle as it applies to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia.

        But you know this and this is why you have been avoiding the obvious and inevitable surrender on the issue. Carry on for a little longer. But some honesty would be appreciated and is expected.
        After the MTO bans me about the issue, I have no desire to further get into it. But even before I was banned, you had never asked what other parts of the OFA I agree or disagree with (which seems to be your sticking point).

        And I stated this:

        "Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA."

        ...before you asked your persistent question. I have no obligation to you or anyone, after being temporarily banned, to answer any more questions how you see fit and at your terms. My point was never to offer any other views about any other part of the OFA EXCEPT for the Badinter Principle. You can claim that it's a part of the whole that cannot be separated from the whole...but I disagree. I stated everything I'm going to state about it. So you can keep on bringing up the Badinter Principle and OFA in every topic I ever post in (whether its this one of the flagship tune one), but I will no longer engage it because of the MTO's unwillingness to productively engage it.

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          Vicsan you have made it abundantly clear that you support the albanians rights & priveleges.How about rights etc for the MACEDONIANS.Look around in western democracies who is stupid enough to give their soveregnity away just to please some non idigenous people.Come on were things that bad before.The albanians had all the things given to them like western societies.They could study their language at any level even to university level.Also they had their owntv & radio stations given to them.The albanians culture was encouraged & was not suppressed.The albanians were not an oppressed people like the macedonians in greece or bulgaria..I personally beleive there should be no FA or your badinter principle until the albanians in albania raise the rights
          of the indigenous macedonians in mala prespa to the same level as albanians in ROM.Also who are the people in ROM aren't the macedonians indigenous to the land.Why should the indigenous people like macedonians give their sovereign rights away.Macedonia gave & was giving before 2001 all ethnic rights to the albanians & cultural rights as well.NOW because of your FA & your badinter principle you want Macedonian soveregnity taken away from the macedonians.(FACT Macedonia gave to the albanians in ROM a tv stationwell before even albania started a TV station in ALbania.)Has macedonia got a bad track record that the FA & badinter principl;e needed to be imposed on it.
          What rights were missing that the FA or the badinter principle had to be forced on the macedonians.This was nothing more than to take Macedonian SOVEREGNITY away from the macedonian people.To rob the macedonians of their majority rule.
          I have always said the so called struggle of the albanians was not about fundamental human rights but to undermine MACEDONIAN SOVEREGNITY.Look at the fine mess both the FA & the badinter principle has made it.The ROM govt is cionstantly giving in to the albanians.
          Vicsan we have got to be greatfull to you there is a saying with friends like you who need enemies.Vicsan you can have the privelege of being called a traitor or a right after all this.Aren't you glad to be amongs't fine buddies like Ljupco & Branko et all.
          Last edited by George S.; 10-26-2012, 03:35 PM. Reason: ed
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            That was a fair bit of text. Well done vicsinad. You refuse to discuss the FA other than to suggest it actually isn't that bad. But you had said you don't agree with it in the past. Which highlights your inconsistency on the matter. Can you understand our confusion about you? Your lack of consistency on the matter is very annoying. You have still not addressed the issue at all. Tell Bill if you like him. I like Bill too. Perhaps he will tell me.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              Victor,

              You have not answered the additional questions I have posed in the last few days. You have only told us why you think a minority should be protected against the majority. You have not addressed why you think the vote of ONE minority should be worth more than the vote of the majority AND all OTHER minorities.

              Further, you still have not told us which "rights" you would like to see protected by a Badinter Principle. You mention 'cultural/linguistic' rights, but what exactly do you mean by that? Should we assume you are talking about the privileges in the FA, which you claim you do not support? I think you need to spell it out here.

              There is no bias in these questions. Stop playing the fool. This is how the Badinter Principle works in PRACTICE in Macedonia.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                I have been doing some thinking lately,about the badinter principle & the FA.These things were designed to keep macedonia busy at bay internally as if it had a real problem with the albanian minority.Could you call that a problem when macedonia is capitulating every step of the way all ready mentioned designed to destroy macedonia & any soveregnity left.BUT think about it these things are now crystal clear that they are very usefull keeping macedonia busy with one important point,it has taken their eyes of the real problems & that is from the attention of keeping an eye on their brothers & sisters in other countries that are oppressed as minorities & not even have BASIC human rights contrast that to the ROM albanians who are not indeginous to the land & look at what they are getting.
                So the whole thing was not to ask the macedonian people of what they are doing but to do it without consultation first from the people.Meanwhile oblivious to their oppressed brothers & sisters in other parts..Why are they giving so many rights priveleges to the albanians for no real need or reason.
                The answer is they have been led by the nose & told what to do,never once questioning whether it is right or wrong for macedonia to do it.Macedonia's decion is like anything else a product of it's mindset.That mindset has got macedonia in all sorts of trouble.So rather than seek basic rights for it's own people the rom govt has done the opposite thing & that is on a path of self destruction.Helping the albanians & not helping it's own people.Was that a too much to ask?
                People don't realise that since 1912 macedonia was partitioned & divided & was mean't to be DESTROYED.It's fate was decided a long time ago.So what's happening with the badinter principle & FA etc all these things were designed to finish destroying macedonia
                any chance macedonia had has totally almost evaporated.Think about it all ploy to destroy macedonia.Those that think it's all good for macedonia, think again.
                Also why doesn't the western world think more about the plight of the macedonian minorities living in seperate regions like greece ,bulgaria,or albania.?It cares more for the ROM albanians,we are supposedly oppressors & tyranists who don't give them their so called rights(priveleges).Because of their slave mindset people can't think outside the square & so have been too preoccupied to think what the badinter principle or the FA really means for the macedonian nation.
                Last edited by George S.; 10-26-2012, 08:19 PM. Reason: ed
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • Bill77
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 4545

                  Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                  Bill,

                  I said this 6 weeks ago:

                  "To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.
                  I will not address the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement you posted as i am not concerned in this instance, i just want to know your opinions.

                  Here is the issue i have with this statement i hi-lighted.

                  A)To put into place a mechanism to safeguard something, this thing must be in some kind of threat or danger. With this ethnic Albanian issue, What part of their rights, as in day to day living, culture or what ever....... was unreasonably prohibited and in danger that needed safeguarding?

                  B)If you happen to find something to be "unreasonably prohibited" caused by Ethnic Macedonians prior to this agreement, please state what it was, but please give an example....a precedent, where another minority anywhere in the western world, had greater benefits than the Ethnic Albanians did prior to this agreement.

                  C)Then you can name me "currently" where another minority anywhere in the western world, has as much power, authority, influence, special privlages, outside protection, and arguably greater rights than the majority.

                  This is enough for now, i will address others later.
                  Last edited by Bill77; 10-26-2012, 08:35 PM.
                  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    ""To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights."

                    "This is what the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement actually states:

                    "For laws that directly affect culture, use of language, education, personal documentation, and use of
                    symbols, the Assembly makes decisions by a majority vote of the Representatives attending, within which
                    there must be a majority of the votes of the Representatives attending who claim to belong to the
                    communities not in the majority in the population of Macedonia."

                    The ohrid agreement is designed to screw the macedonians further should they change their mind on any issues be it ethnic,religion language etc.But the albanians have never had to use their veto so far they know full well that could mean war.
                    Does the FA really guarantee anything considering the way it's set up.Allready if I could explain there are mechanisms in existence to look after the minorities they enjoy not only basic rights but go beyond towards priveleges.Firstly the minority rights were guranteed in th macedonian constituion,then they were under a treaty with the un macedonia signed with the un guaranteeing minority rights.Then the council of europe monitors macedonia.So macedonia really never needed the FA or the badminter principle as it was allready complying & exceeding the requirements.Its become to the point where macedonia is getting screwed by its minority.The albanians want more & more from macedonia & it gets into eroding of its sovereignity.So to prove how ridiculous it is
                    lets say the albanians want their own passports .Macedonia could refuse but the albanians could get it like a privelege.Regarding languages.The albanians only want to learn albanian & not macedonian.They want their own universities of which they want classified as albanian.There are many other things which prove that the FA etc is all undermining macedonia's sovereignity.
                    So vixsan macedonia was allready complying with minority rights long time ago there are many mechanisms which check this is least of all your FA & your badinter principle of which you say is a mechanism.I say it doesn't really monitor the rights demanded by the un under it's treaties.You'll only find macedonia not meeting thalbanians if they are asking too much for their greater albania.Macedonia has met all the minority rights & even ecxceeded them & they aren't even in NAto or the EU.
                    Last edited by George S.; 10-27-2012, 04:20 AM. Reason: ed
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      You refuse to discuss the FA other than to suggest it actually isn't that bad. .
                      When did I say the OFA isn't that bad?

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                        I will not address the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement you posted as i am not concerned in this instance, i just want to know your opinions.

                        Here is the issue i have with this statement i hi-lighted.

                        A)To put into place a mechanism to safeguard something, this thing must be in some kind of threat or danger. With this ethnic Albanian issue, What part of their rights, as in day to day living, culture or what ever....... was unreasonably prohibited and in danger that needed safeguarding?

                        B)If you happen to find something to be "unreasonably prohibited" caused by Ethnic Macedonians prior to this agreement, please state what it was, but please give an example....a precedent, where another minority anywhere in the western world, had greater benefits than the Ethnic Albanians did prior to this agreement.

                        C)Then you can name me "currently" where another minority anywhere in the western world, has as much power, authority, influence, special privlages, outside protection, and arguably greater rights than the majority.

                        This is enough for now, i will address others later.
                        It wasn't that any particular rights of the Albanians was being violated (though I never lived in Macedonia and could not tell you exactly, other than what I've read from news reports)., Rather, it was a perception (justified or not, true or fabricated), on the part of Albanians that either their rights, standing, or interests were not on par with the Macedonians (or, at least, they convinced themselves of this). For example, state-funding for the private Albanian-language university in Tetovo seemed as an absolute must for Albanians, while sheer absurdity for Macedonians. Albanians argued they deserved such a university; Macedonians argued where else do states fund such kind of private universities? I don't think either were necessarily right or wrong. Why couldn't Macedonia just accredit the Tetovo University? Why did Macedonians want to make them pass a Macedonian comprehension test in order to get their degree? Or why can't Albanians just learn Macedonian? (Not akin situations, but Puerto Rico in the USA is given federal funds to run a Spanish-speaking University; 85% of Puerto Ricans can't even speak conversational English; they have a strong independence movement; etc.)

                        So, some Albanians believed that the NLA was actually fighting for these rights and interests (while many also disagreed with the fighting and didn't believe the NLA was actually fighting for the rights), and it was enough to create instability in Macedonia. And, as much as I disagree with many elements of the OFA, there was always a danger that, without some sort of dialogue and appeasement, Macedonia would spin into instability. With a restless Albanian population not only in Macedonia but in Kosovo, Presevo and northern Albania, along with German and American influence in the matters, I think the Macedonian politicians realized that something had to be done -- what would be the consequences of no OFA...short war, long war? A peace deal had to be reached. I would take the OFA, with all its faults, over a prolonged war any day. And the Badinter Principle at least has given the Macedonians something to point to: "Look, we can't take any of your rights away -- pre-OFA rights or post-OFA rights." The Macedonians appeased the Albanians. All that really matters is that one population perceived, or convinced themselves, that they were "lesser" in society, or that their interests weren't being fulfilled, even though they are legal citizens.

                        Comment

                        • Tomche Makedonche
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 1123

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          It wasn't that any particular rights of the Albanians was being violated (though I never lived in Macedonia and could not tell you exactly, other than what I've read from news reports)., Rather, it was a perception (justified or not, true or fabricated), on the part of Albanians that either their rights, standing, or interests were not on par with the Macedonians (or, at least, they convinced themselves of this). For example, state-funding for the private Albanian-language university in Tetovo seemed as an absolute must for Albanians, while sheer absurdity for Macedonians. Albanians argued they deserved such a university; Macedonians argued where else do states fund such kind of private universities? I don't think either were necessarily right or wrong. Why couldn't Macedonia just accredit the Tetovo University? Why did Macedonians want to make them pass a Macedonian comprehension test in order to get their degree? Or why can't Albanians just learn Macedonian? (Not akin situations, but Puerto Rico in the USA is given federal funds to run a Spanish-speaking University; 85% of Puerto Ricans can't even speak conversational English; they have a strong independence movement; etc.)

                          So, some Albanians believed that the NLA was actually fighting for these rights and interests (while many also disagreed with the fighting and didn't believe the NLA was actually fighting for the rights), and it was enough to create instability in Macedonia. And, as much as I disagree with many elements of the OFA, there was always a danger that, without some sort of dialogue and appeasement, Macedonia would spin into instability. With a restless Albanian population not only in Macedonia but in Kosovo, Presevo and northern Albania, along with German and American influence in the matters, I think the Macedonian politicians realized that something had to be done -- what would be the consequences of no OFA...short war, long war? A peace deal had to be reached. I would take the OFA, with all its faults, over a prolonged war any day. And the Badinter Principle at least has given the Macedonians something to point to: "Look, we can't take any of your rights away -- pre-OFA rights or post-OFA rights." The Macedonians appeased the Albanians. All that really matters is that one population perceived, or convinced themselves, that they were "lesser" in society, or that their interests weren't being fulfilled, even though they are legal citizens.
                          . . . Tell me something Vicsinad, and I would appreciate your honesty in this matter, exactly what kind of Macedonia would you personally like to see created?, and furthermore, does this vision of yours also extend to the rest of south eastern Europe?

                          Since a number of us here sometimes find difficulty in interpreting the basis of some of your statements, I would also please ask for some elaboration in your response so that we all can get a clear understanding of your personal thoughts on this matter.
                          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                          Comment

                          • vicsinad
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 2337

                            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                            . . . Tell me something Vicsinad, and I would appreciate your honesty in this matter, exactly what kind of Macedonia would you personally like to see created?, and furthermore, does this vision of yours also extend to the rest of south eastern Europe?

                            Since a number of us here sometimes find difficulty in interpreting the basis of some of your statements, I would also please ask for some elaboration in your response so that we all can get a clear understanding of your personal thoughts on this matter.
                            There is no need to say that you would appreciate my honesty because I have been nothing but honest in all of my responses.

                            Personally, I don't believe in the nation-state. That applies not only to the countries of the Balkans, but all countries. Rather, I prefer strong local civic engagement and control...I prefer the emphasis be on, and control given to, communities. I believe that communities are best capable, and most willing, to protect the interests, needs and rights of their populations. At the same time, I understand the complex situation of Macedonia being surrounded by countries that are still dominated by elements of nationalism. Thus, there are obvious conflicts between what I want, what can be reasonably or realistically expected to happen, and what the democratic process would actually result in.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              Vicsand everyone is asking you to be honest & one thing youre not that you are actually a macedonian.You ask us to beleive that you never been to macedonia.There are other stupid comments that gave you away i don't think you are macedonian you are more than likely from your comments albanian.
                              Look at what you favour a no nation state.Macedonia can't be a homeland of the macedonians because you don't want it.Macedonia has got a minority that macedonia respects & has done so much for them & look what they get in return disrespect for their soveregnity.Actually they don't want macedonian soveregnity at all.
                              In other words you want to secede for a greater albania.Also you favour not learning the majority language which is macedonian.You know there is a saying out of curtesy & respect for one's country when in rome do as the romans do.What happens in macedonia you don't need to learn any language except albanian.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • vicsinad
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 2337

                                Originally posted by George S. View Post
                                Vicsand everyone is asking you to be honest & one thing youre not that you are actually a macedonian.You ask us to beleive that you never been to macedonia.There are other stupid comments that gave you away i don't think you are macedonian you are more than likely from your comments albanian.
                                Look at what you favour a no nation state.Macedonia can't be a homeland of the macedonians because you don't want it.Macedonia has got a minority that macedonia respects & has done so much for them & look what they get in return disrespect for their soveregnity.Actually they don't want macedonian soveregnity at all.
                                In other words you want to secede for a greater albania.Also you favour not learning the majority language which is macedonian.You know there is a saying out of curtesy & respect for one's country when in rome do as the romans do.What happens in macedonia you don't need to learn any language except albanian.
                                Again, about that making sense thing...

                                Comment

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