Ventilator

[George S.]

daniel you hit it on the head i call it going on at a different tangent.or listening to a different drummers beat.THere is no need to feel insulted as its normal to have differing views but we must have a common view to move on.I don't think anyone intentionally wishes harm on people,but as i see some people don't want to listen.I can see as a neutral observer there is room for common ground.So that is very much achievable.Discussing things is the best thing getting it off your chest.THe idea is to come to a healthy realization ,learn from it & move on.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I strongly suggest you view another forum and see how they are run. Forum's are a palce of discussion where debates are triggered amongst members. For instance you live in Australia? Yes? Anyways the Liberal and Labor party of Australia both working for Australia's best interest's right? Yes. Both have certain beleifs of what they think is best right? Yes. They argue their points across and show "agression" in order to get their view to be the most suitable one. Am I right? Here we have some individuals that think they are working in the interest of Macedonia yet are blind to some crucial facts. Instead of reading through the forum and educating themselves we come across to repeating ourselves over and over again due to idiotic sweeping statements that are made. Some individuals are corrected for their statements and are told what is right yet persist to argue for their pride.

Members need to understand that it is a forum and that they aren't necessarily friendly this isn't a fairy land and neither is the real world. This is a struggle and a fight for our identity we are trying to get across crucial points and collect information not constantly battle uneducated Macedonian's this forums main purpose is to educate these Macedonians to use the search function and dig up some information not come on here and start jumping all over the place

I do view a number of other forums, and I can tell you that abuse and insults are highly condemned. Debates are good and healthy, but once the personal attacks surface, nobody wins.
Well no, I would say that the search for power and votes often clouds the ethical and moral judgement of politicians. Those who are not within power will often resort to extremes to destabilise the current government and cause controversy. We have seen this with the Liberal party and SDSM as recent examples, purposely rejecting bills in parliament or detracting from the core issues at hand in order to undermine their opponents. So no, political parties do not always have the best interests of their people at heart. The Macedonian government should be proof of this to everyone.

A forum doesn't give an individual the license to abuse others behind the safety of their computer screen. I'm sure you, as many others have Macedonia's interests at heart, but you are virtually treating these fellow Macedonians as enemies. Many of these people that you are accusing of being 'passer-bys,' are in fact very informed individuals. A search into their past posts wouldn't hurt in this regard.

EM, you should take the time to become aware of the issues before offering up advice, otherwise your advice may be totally off the mark. There is a serious ideological war going on at the moment and its not just personality based (though some are of the view that it is). This is a ideological war that comes to boiling point time and again on the forum and its always the same group of people who cry foul after being questioned, leave, and then come back to open up the same front.

So you condone the insults being dished out, purely in the name of an 'ideological war'? To me it seems that the initially, healthy argument, is being elevated to a new personal level a lot of the time. If they are ideologically flawed, they will not be inclined to take on your array of knowledge if they are harshly judged. If it the same group of people are returning each time, perhaps a different approach should be taken to educate them, so they do not leave again.

My advice is my advice. I am informed of the issues and have every right to express my concerns. If it is off the mark, then so be it. But at least I'm not sitting in silence.

[Vangelovski]

So you condone the insults being dished out, purely in the name of an 'ideological war'? To me it seems that the initially, healthy argument, is being elevated to a new personal level a lot of the time. If they are ideologically flawed, they will not be inclined to take on your array of knowledge if they are harshly judged. If it the same group of people are returning each time, perhaps a different approach should be taken to educate them, so they do not leave again.

My advice is my advice. I am informed of the issues and have every right to express my concerns. If it is off the mark, then so be it. But at least I'm not sitting in silence.

EM, you just said that you were unsure of the core source of the tensions. I do not like the insults, and would much prefer to do without them. But if you take a closer look, you will find that it is the very people that complain about the insults that give out the most.

Secondly, these groups are not interested in learning anything - they have their own ideological views that they want to promote - ones that are at odds with ours. If you spend more time on here, you'll soon get to know who's who, who's just plain innocent and genuine and who has ulterior motives.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Our adversaries are probably laying back in their arm-chairs, laughing at the fact that they no longer have to destroy our will...we are destroying ourselves.

Our enemies have enough problems of their own and they argue no less among each other than we do. I consider what is going here as a healthy process because if people feel a particular way about a topic or person then they should speak their minds. If their views are flawed they should take constructive criticism. If they need to be told repeatedly then there is no excuse and they deserve to be criticised, because what they're doing holds back progress with respect to the Macedonian Cause. These personal debates/arguments run their course eventually, at least at the end we know where everybody stands.

I'm going to be completely honest here. There IS a reason why so many MACEDONIAN MTO members have left of late or minimised their input on the forum. As to the core source of the heightened tension, I am not sure. But there is a problem, and ignoring it will only make the matter worse. It's time that everyone took some responsibility and truly realised that this ongoing display of negativity and attacks will be detrimental to our common sentiment, that of the Macedonian cause.

Perhaps there is a reason, but you're making more of it than it is. So we're going through a period of intense debate and some members aren't being the most diplomatic to each other, that will always be a normal part of any forum where such matters are being discussed. Sometimes it will be more heated than others. The forum is fine, and rather than all of the observations on how it is going, we need to get back to focusing on the topic at hand. Certain people displaying animosity to each other is no reason to complain, it happens, and will continue to happen, it's not a perfect world.

All of us here have common beliefs on Macedonian issues, but with different approaches to them. Everyone's opinion and view must be respected. Sadly, some people choose not to respect others views on this forum which leads to insults.

Not all views are worthy of respect if they aren't aligned with the Macedonian Cause.

[Bij]

Ok let's all admit things have gotten out of hand and hug and make up.

This forum, although overrun by testosterone, is a great wealth of information and I've spent hours upon hours on here reading articles and info.

I personally think the efforts of some members are misguided and yes Tom I feel you are incredibly rude to people who fundamentally agree with you but differ on approach but c'est la vie. If I wasn't up for the debate, I would stop posting.

Rather than arguing let's put some goals in to place. I know the first post explains the mto position on the flag, let's better articulate it and start spreading it to websites that use the flag and appeal to them to stop. I think this would be a good start.

[Risto the Great]

Bij, you're an interesting example. After your "hours & hours" on the forum, you say you don't care about the flag, constitution etc. of Macedonia. At what point do we relegate Macedonian contributors to the "joke category"? If you were new here, we would have assumed you were a Greek or Albanian playing games.

Sounds like you may have come round on the issue so confronting you on the matter seems to have worked. Other Macedonians are or simply will never be good for the Macedonian Cause.

[Bij]

Bij, you're an interesting example. After your "hours & hours" on the forum, you say you don't care about the flag, constitution etc. of Macedonia. At what point do we relegate Macedonian contributors to the "joke category"? If you were new here, we would have assumed you were a Greek or Albanian playing games.

Sounds like you may have come round on the issue so confronting you on the matter seems to have worked. Other Macedonians are or simply will never be good for the Macedonian Cause.

In the context of Macedonia beating Greece in a basketball game, no, I don't care about the flag or constitution. Is it an all consuming thought that'll get me through the next 60 years of being a Macedonian? Nah, but for a few days I felt like a very proud Macedonian. One that could say, "you know what you lamo greek fuckers, you changed our constitution, you forced a flag upon us, and we still kicked your ass!! In your hairy ugly faces!" Sorry if this doesn't streamline with the ever fighting constitutional Macedonian keyboard warriors of the MTO who are forever fighting the tough fight, but I need to get my kicks somewhere to keep going. This will come across as fickle to most of you, but in my fairy land Macedonians support other Macedonians, and rather than striking down each other with force we embrace with knowledge and care.

What are you guys fighting for exactly? It's not the Macedonian people because you clearly don't like them (Eurodonians????) Is it for the country? The land? What Macedonia was? What Macedonia could've been?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonians who accept imposed changes on our historical identity for the sake of entering the EU deserve to be called 'Eurodonians'. Can't really be bothered responding to the rest because much of it is suggestive nonsense on your part. Your manner changes like the wind. What happened to this:

Rather than arguing let's put some goals in to place. I know the first post explains the mto position on the flag, let's better articulate it and start spreading it to websites that use the flag and appeal to them to stop. I think this would be a good start.

[Vangelovski]

In the context of Macedonia beating Greece in a basketball game, no, I don't care about the flag or constitution. Is it an all consuming thought that'll get me through the next 60 years of being a Macedonian? Nah, but for a few days I felt like a very proud Macedonian. One that could say, "you know what you lamo greek fuckers, you changed our constitution, you forced a flag upon us, and we still kicked your ass!! In your hairy ugly faces!" Sorry if this doesn't streamline with the ever fighting constitutional Macedonian keyboard warriors of the MTO who are forever fighting the tough fight, but I need to get my kicks somewhere to keep going. This will come across as fickle to most of you, but in my fairy land Macedonians support other Macedonians, and rather than striking down each other with force we embrace with knowledge and care.

What are you guys fighting for exactly? It's not the Macedonian people because you clearly don't like them (Eurodonians????) Is it for the country? The land? What Macedonia was? What Macedonia could've been?

Bij, you've shown your true colours here - in case someone wasn't already aware. If you don't know what we are on about, after having read our definition of the cause (which you claim to have done by claiming that you agree with us ideologically) you wouldn't be asking what exactly we stand for. Further, you would not accept the ventilator in any context (though you never specified what context the flag, name and constitution were superfluous for you and as such could only be taken in a all-encompassing context). I foresee a lot of back peddling, flip-flopping and eventual disappearance, only to return with the same BS in the near future with your 'comrades'.

[Bij]

Macedonians who accept imposed changes on our historical identity for the sake of entering the EU deserve to be called 'Eurodonians'. Can't really be bothered responding to the rest because much of it is suggestive nonsense on your part. Your manner changes like the wind. What happened to this:

No one wants to be part of my crusade :-(

[Bij]

Bij, you've shown your true colours here - in case someone wasn't already aware. If you don't know what we are on about, after having read our definition of the cause (which you claim to have done by claiming that you agree with us ideologically) you wouldn't be asking what exactly we stand for. Further, you would not accept the ventilator in any context (though you never specified what context the flag, name and constitution were superfluous for you and as such could only be taken in a all-encompassing context). I foresee a lot of back peddling, flip-flopping and eventual disappearance, only to return with the same BS in the near future with your 'comrades'.

Who are my comrades?

[Soldier of Macedon]

No one wants to be part of my crusade :-(

That isn't true. Why don't you start by suggesting ways to better articulate and spread our message to other websites?

[Vangelovski]

Who are my comrades?

Jankovska - there's another flip flop.

[Bij]

Jankovska - there's another flip flop.

Oh. Is that so? Here I was thinking you just hated females.

[Bij]

That isn't true. Why don't you start by suggesting ways to better articulate and spread our message to other websites?

Use a basic business/marketing strategy to get your idea out in to the world (kind of like advertising yourself). All you'd need is a quick standardised email and any members can copy and paste. instead of bombarding the same website repeatedly, the forum can keep a list of websites contacted so that the message can be spread widely.

The email needs to be simple:

-Positive intro
-Short, impactful statement using the OSI (overview - situation - impact) method of what the ventilator means
- Short, impactful statement using OSI method of what the traditional flag means.
- Offer easy alternatives to current imagery used (if there's effort involved, people will be reluctant to take it up).

Direct mail (or in this case, email) and keep your fingers crossed.

All one would need is an influential writer and someone who can put together a few graphics using the old Macedonian flag.