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  • Spartan
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1037

    #16
    Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post
    Army of Alexander The Great was unquestionably the greatest army of the ancient world. His army of just over 40,000 men were never defeated. In 333 BC he defeated the Persian army of over 200,000 men under the leadership of Persian King Darius. He was revered by other great military leaders such as Julius Caesar.
    Roman Army, they almost conquered the known world.
    Spartan Army, May have been the best trained Soldiers in ancient times.
    The Mongols, they took China completely, and quite a bit of Russia, Turkey and Europe.


    One can say the Spartan army was perhaps the most well trained army in the ancient Greek world; but whilst Athens controlled the sea they were unable to effectively use it
    The Spartans weren't warriors, they were proper soldiers, which was one reason they were so formidable. But their combat record included many losses and never forget the real reason for Spartan militarism was to hold down the Helots at home; the Spartan army was kind of a mixture of the Gestapo, Einsatzgruppen and the Waffen SS.

    In the end to hold up their rotten and corrupt system they were reduced to taking money from Persia to fight other Greeks and still they fell to the Thebans and revolt at home.

    What are your thoughts Spartan..?
    Good post LwR, really good. Not much I can disagree with here. I will though, if I may, elaborate on a couple points.

    One can say the Spartan army was perhaps the most well trained army in the ancient Greek world; but whilst Athens controlled the sea they were unable to effectively use it
    Actually the Athenian navy was the best of its time. The reason the Peloponesian war lasted so long was that Sparta could not defeat Athens on sea, which enabled athens to maintain a very lucrative 'naval' empire. After 28 yrs, and many loans from the Persian satraps of the times, the Spartans finally defeated the Athenian navy, and won the war.
    Prior to this though, the Athenians had defeated the Spartan 'navy' many times, and being outnumbered very badly too.
    Also, would just like to add that the Spartan army marched yearly on Athens, but the coward Athenians would stay behind their walls, refusing to be men, and meet the Spartans face to face. The Spartans would shout insults at them, pillage the attic countyside till their supplies ran out, and then march back home till next year.

    The Spartans weren't warriors, they were proper soldiers, which was one reason they were so formidable. But their combat record included many losses and never forget the real reason for Spartan militarism was to hold down the Helots at home; the Spartan army was kind of a mixture of the Gestapo, Einsatzgruppen and the Waffen SS.
    This is also true.
    The reason for this was the Spartan law itself. It was against the law to retreat or surrender. Many of these losses could have been avoided if it wasnt for this.

    I would recommend reading the 'laws of Lycurgus' for anyone interested in ancient military tactics.

    Comment

    • The LION will ROAR
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3231

      #17
      Thanks for the extra information Spartan...
      The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

      Comment

      • Spartan
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1037

        #18
        No, thank-you my friend for bringing such an interesting perspective to the topic!

        Comment

        • 777Bitola
          Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 103

          #19
          As far as modern armies go. USA,Germany,UK,Russia, and Isreal are the most powerful. Macedonia spends quite alot of money on their army, and we have a good land force. Infantry is well trained, and they have nice IFC,APC vehicles.
          Although our air force lacks alot, and our heavy armour could use a bit of improovement. We are probably more advanced then our Albanian neighbours and on par with Serbia and Bulgaria. But Greece has the strongest military in that region.

          As far as pre modern military goes, Alexander the Great is one of the tops, George Washington, Napoelian, and Genghis Khan.

          The ancient Macedonian army was bad ass fighting off armies 6 times larger and even what they thought were monsters but we know them as elephants today. What was so outstanding was that at the Battle of Guagemala even though he was outnumbered his army suffered only 100 casualties while the Persians lost close to 300,000.
          Last edited by 777Bitola; 12-01-2009, 09:11 PM.

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #20
            Originally posted by 777Bitola View Post
            But Greece has the strongest military in that region.
            Greece is quit strong militarily. Greece was well suported by the west to become a strong military in the regions Because it suited There own (The West) purpose.

            But Claiming being "The Stongest" not acurate. Turkey takes the prize.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • 777Bitola
              Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 103

              #21
              Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
              Greece is quit strong militarily. Greece was well suported by the west to become a strong military in the regions Because it suited There own (The West) purpose.

              But Claiming being "The Stongest" not acurate. Turkey takes the prize.
              Well, there about even in my opinion. Turkey has more soldiers but sometimes a bigger troop count doesn't matter. You can see Greeces influence in the west in their army. There using Apaches instead of Hinds, American rifles, although they have shown an interest in Russian vehicles such as the BMP T.

              Comment

              • Spartan
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1037

                #22
                ^^I agree, although the Greek military is set up to defend, not attack. Can the same be said for the turks army?

                Comment

                • Bill77
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 4545

                  #23
                  Originally posted by 777Bitola View Post
                  Well, there about even in my opinion. Turkey has more soldiers but sometimes a bigger troop count doesn't matter. You can see Greeces influence in the west in their army. There using Apaches instead of Hinds, American rifles, although they have shown an interest in Russian vehicles such as the BMP T.
                  My post is not to promote Turky or Belittle Greece. Greece are strong and no dought about it. But for the sake reality, Here are some facts and you make up your own mind.

                  Navy:

                  Nation - Value - Ships
                  Britan - 46 - 102
                  Turkey - 7 - 60
                  Greece - 6 - 37



                  some other facts but do your own search,

                  Air force:
                  Both have very similar equipment, F-16 block 52s making up the majority of the upcoming fleets. But Turkey has a larger personal and fleet.


                  Turkey's population and manpower is 7 times bigger than Greece
                  Turkey Financialy is better than Greece
                  Turkish tank force is very large when compared to Greece

                  And very importantly, Because of the fights with PKK terrorists Turkey has very experienced troops and officers.

                  Thats it on this subject.
                  Last edited by Bill77; 12-01-2009, 10:49 PM.
                  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                  Comment

                  • Bill77
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 4545

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                    ^^I agree, although the Greek military is set up to defend, not attack. Can the same be said for the turks army?
                    I think If war breaks(hope not) it will be up to air forces and navy's. The border is full of mountains so an attack from there would be lethal for both sides. Now with the Air force superiority, you would have to favour The Turks.
                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                    Comment

                    • Bill77
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 4545

                      #25
                      As for who would be the best Modern Day Army? I would like to see US or the world take on China
                      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                      Comment

                      • The LION will ROAR
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3231

                        #26
                        Here are some more Stats...

                        GlobalFirepower.com: Strength in Numbers
                        Reference detailing major and minor global military powers through accumulated statistics and rankings.


                        Turkey Military Strength
                        PERSONNEL
                        Total Population: 71,892,808 [2008]
                        Population Available: 39,645,893 [2008]
                        Fit for Military Service: 33,444,999 [2008]
                        Reaching Military Age Annually: 1,298,979 [2008]
                        Active Military Personnel: 514,000 [2008]
                        Active Military Reserve: 380,000 [2008]
                        Active Paramilitary Units: 148,700 [2008]

                        ARMY
                        Total Land-Based Weapons: 6,672
                        Tanks: 4,205 [2007]
                        Armored Personnel Carriers: 830 [2007]
                        Towed Artillery: 685 [2007]
                        Self-Propelled Guns: 868 [2007]
                        Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 84 [2007]
                        Mortars: 5,813 [2007]
                        Anti-Tank Guided Weapons: 1,283 [2007]
                        Anti-Aircraft Weapons: 1,664 [2007]

                        NAVY
                        Total Navy Ships: 182
                        Merchant Marine Strength: 602 [2008]
                        Major Ports and Harbors: 6
                        Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
                        Destroyers: 0 [2008]
                        Submarines: 13 [2007]
                        Frigates: 24 [2007]
                        Patrol & Coastal Craft: 28 [2007]
                        Mine Warfare Craft: 24 [2007]
                        Amphibious Craft: 8 [2007]

                        AIR FORCE
                        Total Aircraft: 1,199 [2007]
                        Helicopters: 336 [2007]
                        Serviceable Airports: 117 [2007]

                        Greece Military Strength
                        PERSONNEL
                        Total Population: 10,722,816 [2008]
                        Population Available: 5,052,447 [2008]
                        Fit for Military Service: 4,150,425 [2008]
                        Reaching Military Age Annually: 104,346 [2008]
                        Active Military Personnel: 177,000 [2008]
                        Active Military Reserve: 291,000 [2008]
                        Active Paramilitary Units: 4,000 [2008]

                        ARMY
                        Total Land-Based Weapons: 4,403
                        Towed Artillery: 12,228 [2001]


                        NAVY
                        Total Navy Ships: 118
                        Merchant Marine Strength: 869 [2008]
                        Major Ports and Harbors: 5
                        Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
                        Destroyers: 3 [2008]
                        Submarines: 8 [2008]
                        Frigates: 13 [2008]
                        Patrol & Coastal Craft: 39 [2008]
                        Mine Warfare Craft: 18 [2008]
                        Amphibious Craft: 13 [2008]

                        AIR FORCE
                        Total Aircraft: 847 [2003]
                        Helicopters: 218 [2003]
                        Serviceable Airports: 81 [2007]
                        The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                        Comment

                        • Bill77
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 4545

                          #27
                          Great web site Lion. Thanks.

                          Now lets compare yours with china, And don't forget, all they need is a bowl of rice to keep them going

                          PERSONNEL
                          Total Population: 1,330,044,544 [2008]
                          Population Available: 729,323,673 [2008]
                          Fit for Military Service: 609,273,077 [2008]
                          Reaching Military Age Annually: 20,470,412 [2008]
                          Active Military Personnel: 2,255,000 [2008]
                          Active Military Reserve: 800,000 [2008]
                          Active Paramilitary Units: 3,969,000 [2008]

                          ARMY
                          Total Land-Based Weapons: 31,300
                          Tanks: 8,200 [2004]
                          Armored Personnel Carriers: 5,000 [2004]
                          Towed Artillery: 14,000 [2004]
                          Self-Propelled Guns: 1,700 [2004]
                          Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 2,400 [2004]
                          Mortars: 16,000 [2001]
                          Anti-Tank Guided Weapons: 6,500 [2004]
                          Anti-Aircraft Weapons: 7,700 [2004]

                          NAVY
                          Total Navy Ships: 760
                          Merchant Marine Strength: 1,822 [2008]
                          Major Ports and Harbors: 8
                          Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2010]
                          Destroyers: 21 [2004]
                          Submarines: 68 [2004]
                          Frigates: 42 [2004]
                          Patrol & Coastal Craft: 368 [2004]
                          Mine Warfare Craft: 39 [2004]
                          Amphibious Craft: 121 [2004]

                          AIR FORCE
                          Total Aircraft: 1,900 [2004]
                          Helicopters: 491 [2004]
                          Serviceable Airports: 467 [2007]
                          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                          Comment

                          • astibo
                            Junior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 60

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                            I think If war breaks(hope not) it will be up to air forces and navy's. The border is full of mountains so an attack from there would be lethal for both sides. Now with the Air force superiority, you would have to favour The Turks.
                            I think that in modern warfare the first step is to achive air superioriti, and than to softhen up the land force of the enemy by constant bombarding, the third step would be advancing of tanks and infantriy suported by the air force. So the qey for victori is achiving air superiority.
                            There are some examples of nations wining the defencive war with no air superiority (for example vietnam), but thear land would be all burned up..

                            Comment

                            • 777Bitola
                              Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 103

                              #29
                              An airforce can be rendered useless with modern AA that are experiences. Seeing as they can shoot you down at 82,000 feet(SA 17)Not that any aircraft can reach that height but they needed to be supported from tanks or IFVs.

                              Comment

                              • Bill77
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 4545

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                Well, seeing as you chose not to venture outside the edges yourself too much with your reference to Spartans, I feel obliged to list the Macedonians, as the first professional army in Europe and the first conquerors of (most of) the known world at the time.

                                As for best leaders, I think in many respects Phillip II was better than Alexander, and the mighty military machine known as the Macedonian army was inherited by Alexander from his father.

                                I would also list Leonidas as one of the best leaders, and also Hector of Troy, as they fought with heart and alongside their men till then end of their lives.
                                Getting Back to The Macedonian Army And Phillip II, you might enjoy this from Discovery Channel. Note how in the first part the narator distinguish's Macedonians from Greeks.

                                YouTube - The Macedonians - Discovery Channel -Ancient Warriors 1 of 4

                                YouTube - The Macedonians - Discovery Channel -Ancient Warriors 2 of 4

                                YouTube - The Macedonians - Discovery Channel -Ancient Warriors 3 of 4

                                YouTube - The Macedonians - Discovery Channel -Ancient Warriors 4 of 4
                                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

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