Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    As far as we could tell, there is no trace of Russian involvement in the boycott movements, at least not the original ones.

    Only Bachev and his party seem to have direct links to Russia.

    What we can't forget is that the boycott movement, although it was started by a couple of groups, has ballooned to 30-60 individual groups. Now I guess it's possible that some of those groups are Russian trolls, but I know for a fact that the largest groups having nothing to do with Russia.

    Originally posted by VMRO View Post
    How are the Russians doing that without having a grasp of knowing the Macedonian language?

    Seems to me the US blames everything on Russia these days.

    Comment

    • Tomche Makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 1123

      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
      As far as we could tell, there is no trace of Russian involvement in the boycott movements, at least not the original ones.

      Only Bachev and his party seem to have direct links to Russia.

      What we can't forget is that the boycott movement, although it was started by a couple of groups, has ballooned to 30-60 individual groups. Now I guess it's possible that some of those groups are Russian trolls, but I know for a fact that the largest groups having nothing to do with Russia.
      According to the Americans and “Europeans”, we are all “Russians” anyway... and it’s important that “Russians” have nothing to do with Russia, are stripped/broken down to their base elements, ensuring their culture and identity are erased so that they can then be reconstructed as new improved “Europeans”.

      Can you think of a better way to totally annihilate your enemy without murdering every single one of them?

      The worse thing about all of it, is that we are willingly and enthusiastically supporting this process, which means we only have ourselves to blame, no one else. It would be the equivalent of if the Jews all enthusiastically and happily rushed to get to the station, petitioned to have as many trains as possible to arrive, and then fought eachother over on who gets to board the trains first knowing full well their destination
      Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 09-23-2018, 09:08 PM.
      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

      Comment

      • JPMKD
        Member
        • Mar 2016
        • 101

        Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
        According to the Americans and “Europeans”, we are all “Russians” anyway... and it’s important that “Russians” have nothing to do with Russia, are stripped/broken down to their base elements, ensuring their culture and identity are erased so that they can then be reconstructed as new improved “Europeans”.

        Can you think of a better way to totally annihilate your enemy without murdering every single one of them?

        The worse thing about all of it, is that we are willingly and enthusiastically supporting this process, which means we only have ourselves to blame, no one else. It would be the equivalent of if the Jews all enthusiastically and happily rushed to get to the station, petitioned to have as many trains as possible to arrive, and then fought eachother over on who gets to board the trains first knowing full well their destination
        Sad but true. I mean there is zero counter narrative out of the republic anyway. Zero that's reaching the US anyway. I'm shocked US news even mentioned it.
        Once in the EU will the rest of us be able to invest in troll farms in Veles?
        Not a Northadonian

        Comment

        • Gocka
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 2306

          I don't think there is a historic precedent for what is happening in Macedonia.

          All of the hardworking, intelligent, and educated have essentially left the country. All you are left with is the riff raff. The lazy, the incapable, and the elite who have vested interested in keeping this a certain way.

          Like I've said dozens of times by now. If you get involved directly in this mess, you quickly realize that we are some of the dumbest and most useless people on the planet. There is no need for a vast conspiracy, its all right there in plain sight for all to see.

          Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
          According to the Americans and “Europeans”, we are all “Russians” anyway... and it’s important that “Russians” have nothing to do with Russia, are stripped/broken down to their base elements, ensuring their culture and identity are erased so that they can then be reconstructed as new improved “Europeans”.

          Can you think of a better way to totally annihilate your enemy without murdering every single one of them?

          The worse thing about all of it, is that we are willingly and enthusiastically supporting this process, which means we only have ourselves to blame, no one else. It would be the equivalent of if the Jews all enthusiastically and happily rushed to get to the station, petitioned to have as many trains as possible to arrive, and then fought eachother over on who gets to board the trains first knowing full well their destination

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Анкета на 360 Степени: Запрепастувачка неинформираност на граѓаните за Договорот од Преспа

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            На помалку од една недела до референдумското изјаснување ниту половина од гласачите во Македонија не ги знаат одредбите од договорот со Грција. Ова го покажува телефонската анкета на 1017 испитаници, која по барање на „360 Степени“ ја спроведе Институт за демократија во соработка со агенцијата М-Проспект.

            Ваквиот генерален заклучок следи од одговорите на испитаниците на трите прашања што им ги поставивме, а се однесуваат на трите клучни елементи во Договорот: одредницата со која ќе се именуваат етничките Македонци, јазикот на Македонците и опсегот на употреба на новото име.

            Првото од трите прашања гласеше: според договорот меѓу Македонија и Грција, етничките Македонци:

            – ќе останат етнички Македонци – 41,8 %

            – ќе се преименуваат во Северномакедонци – 12,5 %

            – ќе станат граѓани на Северна Македонија – 31,5 %

            – не знае/не сака да одговори – 14,2 %

            Само 41,8% одговорија точно – дека според договорот во употреба ќе остане „Македонци“. Наспроти нив, 12,5% одговорија дека Македонците ќе се преименуваат во Северномакедонци, а високи 31,5% мислат дека формулацијата ќе се смени во „граѓани на Северна Македонија“. Преостанатите 14,2% проценти не знаат или не сакаат да одговорат.

            Второто прашање што го поставивме гласи: според договорот меѓу Македонија и Грција, јазикот:

            – ќе остане македонски – 52,8 %

            – ќе се именува македонски, но со фуснота

            дека припаѓа во јужнословенските јазици – 13,6 %

            – ќе се преименува во северномакедонски – 23,3 %

            – не знае/не сака да одговори – 10,3 %

            Само на ова прашање повеќе од половината испитаници или 52,8% дадоа точен одговор, дека за јазикот ќе се користи формулацијата македонски јазик. 13,6% мислат дека покрај македонски јазик постојано ќе има фуснота дека е дел од групата јужнословенски јазици. Високи 23,3%, пак, се убедени дека јазикот ќе се преименува во северномакедонски. Не знае или не сака да одговори секој десетти испитаник.

            Најголемо изненадување се резултатите од третото прашање, за опсегот на употреба на новото име, тема која со години се дебатира во јавноста. Таму понудивме две опции, за тоа дали името Северна Македонија:

            – ќе се користи за внатрешна и меѓународна употреба – 48.9 %

            – ќе се користи само за меѓународна употреба – 34.7 %

            – не знае/не сака да одговори – 16.4 %

            Точен одговор нема ниту половина од популацијата, односно 48,9% велат дека новото име ќе се користи и за внатрешна и за надворешна употреба, како што предвидува договорот. Една третина или 34,7% се во заблуда дека Северна Македонија ќе се користи само за меѓународна употреба, а значителни 16,4% не знаат или не сакаат да одговорат.

            Во Институтот за демократија направија и вкрстени анализи на резултатите. Еден од споредбените параметри беше како одговориле симпатизерите на СДСМ, а како на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

            „ Делот на оние граѓани кои што припаѓа на опозицијата е повеќе дезинформиран, но незначително подезинформиран од оние коишто би гласале на идни избори за актуелната влада. Што значи дека не е до толку опозициската кампања таа што направила ефект колку што отсуството на поконзистентна и поприсутна кампања на владата.“ – изјави Марко Трошановски од Институт за демократија „Социетас Цивилис“.

            Во категорија на статистичката грешка од +/- 3,1% се разликите меѓу одговорите на градското и на руралното население, на мажите и жените, на младите, средовечните и старите. Иако не е голема, забележителна беше само разликата во одговорите според критериумот етничка припадност.

            „ Кај етничките Албанци, она што е видливо е дека нивото на дезинформираност е малку повисока отколку кај етничките Македонци. Можеби тоа се должи на индиферентноста на одредени одредби на договорот или можеби се должи едноставно на кампањата кај албанските гласачи која во голем дел е фокусирана на ЕУ и на НАТО отколку на јазикот, националноста и слично.“- анализира Трошановски.

            Еден клучен наод од анкетата, вели Трошановски, е високата определеност на граѓаните. Околу 14 отсто од испитаниците рекле дека не знаат или не сакаат да одговорат, споредено со вообичаените една третина неопределени на политички анкети.

            Очигледно голем дел од луѓето имаат формирано мислење… Она што е предизвик во пет дена е тој став кој што ќе го имаат они да биде точен. Мислам дека во претстојните неколку дена треба да се направи се што е можно поконзистентно и појасно да се искомуницираат главните придобивки и точните значења на формулациите во договорот од Преспа, поради тоа што очигледно има голема дезинформираност на луѓето, без оглед на која партија припаѓаат и без оглед на етничката припадност.- заклучува Марко Трошановски.

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              На помалку од една недела до референдумското изјаснување ниту половина од гласачите во Македонија не ги знаат одредбите од договорот со Грција.

              Less than a week before the referendum vote, half of the voters in Macedonia do not know the provisions of the agreement with Greece.
              Seriously, how can a nation go to a vote on such a fundamental matter and not even know a thing about what this vote is about?
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                Seriously, how can a nation go to a vote on such a fundamental matter and not even know a thing about what this vote is about?
                RtG, you're applying a modern, western-world/Australian perspective to what is essentially a medieval/Balkan, way of doing business.

                This is the only way such treachery can win the day, with 'bull in the china shop' diplomacy and leadership, together with a complete lack of transparency, the calculated exclusion of the majority of stakeholders in the decision making process and the total disregard for following any rule of law...such dysfunction plays out perfectly when you consider the toxic apathy of the populace.

                Comment

                • Tomche Makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 1123

                  Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                  There is no need for a vast conspiracy, its all right there in plain sight for all to see.
                  It was a lazy attempt at sarcasm re: America’s current offensive against Russia. It was not meant to imply some kind of grand conspiracy
                  “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                    ..such dysfunction plays out perfectly when you consider the toxic apathy of the populace.
                    One day we will say "I told you so". But they will still be too ignorant to understand what they lost in their death by a thousand cuts.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Gocka
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 2306

                      The attempt was fine and I fully got it.

                      I was merely venting. These days I have to let it out every few hours otherwise I might explode.

                      Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                      It was a lazy attempt at sarcasm re: America’s current offensive against Russia. It was not meant to imply some kind of grand conspiracy

                      Comment

                      • JPMKD
                        Member
                        • Mar 2016
                        • 101

                        How can the wording of the referendum question be they way it is? Total deception by omission. No public debates on TV I'd imagine.
                        A little tough to watch it all go down with a whimper.
                        Not a Northadonian

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          There are public debates/town halls taking place:

                          Comment

                          • Pelagonija
                            Member
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 533

                            This article says it all about prespa identity changing agreement. I thought I’d post it as we are so close to the end.

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              Zaev again emphasizes that if the majority of those who vote do vote yes, then that is enough to pass the agreement.

                              Many of us have said it before and I'll say it again: If this happens, and the Macedonians don't resist not only the change to the name/identity, but also complete ignorance of the constitution and democratic values, then they don't deserve to have Macedonia and they don't deserve to have a democracy.




                              - Since the forthcoming referendum has been called consultative, there are still doubts about what conditions need to be met for the process to be considered successful?

                              - I believe that we will have a successful referendum. I believe that the vast majority of citizens share the same vision for our country as a country in which prosperity, security and equal opportunities are available to all. This is the vision for a European Macedonia. A successful consultative referendum means that a vast majority of citizens who go to polling stations will choose "for".



                              After the referendum, MPs in the Assembly should respect the decision of the majority of the citizens who voted.

                              Therefore, every citizen should come out, vote and thus decide on the future of Macedonia. Only those who go out to vote have the opportunity to decide. Their voice will be heard. We are close to dreaming.

                              - The expectations are that the agreement, however, will be ratified in the parliament in Athens, despite the reactions of the opposition there, as well as part of Tsipras's coalition partners. How will the process of full membership of Macedonia in NATO proceed?

                              The process for our full NATO membership has already begun. We received an invitation for NATO membership. What we did not get in 2008, we got now, as a result of the great success of the citizens of Macedonia. The outcome of the referendum will give impetus to the Assembly to adopt the constitutional changes, by a two-thirds majority, provided for in the agreement by the end of December this year. The very next month, in January 2019, the process of ratification of the protocol for Macedonia's membership in the national parliaments of the 29 NATO member states will begin. Greece will be the first member state to ratify the membership protocol, along with the Agreement. With the accession protocol our country acquires the right to participate in all NATO structures and get a seat at the main table of the North Atlantic Council. We will sit next to Norway. The ratification of the agreement for accession of the parliaments of all NATO member states lasts about a year and a half.

                              Aleksandra M. Mitevska

                              Comment

                              • Pelagonija
                                Member
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 533

                                Look how mental America and the American media is:



                                Apparently Macedonia has a big Russian problem, the last time I checked it was western politicians coming out in support of the name and indentity change so that we could join their organisations, the alternative is to suffer the same fate of North Korea.

                                Comment

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