United Macedonia Diaspora

[Grotius]

Hi SoM,

Yes, I wasn’t suggesting that the essential ‘Macedonian’ identity is artificial, rather that human rights norms (as I understand them - happy to be told otherwise) perhaps afford the individual a right to self identify as belonging to that identity. Of course, the (my) assumption is that such a ‘Macedonian’ identity exists regardless of peoples different conceptual understandings of its progenitor features.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hi Grotius, no problem. I didn't interpret your statement as indicative that the Macedonian identity is artificial, I was instead making reference to others that try and encroach on us, such as some Greeks that now claim to be 'Macedonian'.

[Grotius]

SoM, I was looking at it from a different perspective, but, yes i see what you mean. you are quite right. of course, the claim of these "others" to a 'Macedonian' identity is not the same essential 'Macedonian' identity I had in mind - besides, I'm not sure that they claim it as an ethnic identity separate from the Greek, they are still Greeks and seem to equate their claims to being a M with being Greek. Whereas for us, it is our existential claim, which of course, is denied by them. But I certainly see what you mean.

[DIMO]

as a macedonian nation and people we are the decendents of the ancient macedonians that is our great macedonian history. It is true that there is a couple of people in amhrc that beleive that todays macedonians are slavs that speek slavic and they have stated it, i hope that they get rid of these people. MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE MACEDONIAN ALAPAHBET MACEDONIAN CULTURE MACEDONIAN RELIGON MACEDONIAN HISTORY ENOUGH OF THIS SLAV SHIT !

[Bratot]

Bratot, I pretty much equate the Greek flag with Macedonia's new one. They had more to do with it than Macedonians did.

I'm not sure if you are pointing only for the circumstances how the current flag appeared or the symbol 'within'?

You can't trace the 16-rayed version of the sun as Macedonian "flag" before either, but you can trace many other versions of the SUN as a symbol on many Macedonian flags.

And if we push ourself to justificate even this version with some ancient motives we can also do that, but that's not the core of the problem, the problem is that some of us equate the fact - of changing the flag, with the chosen version.
So, no matter if we had the same form of the 16-rayed sun but only 8 rayes or 5 or 6, maybe 10 lions or whatever other version we would judge negativelly to it.

I have no problem to bring back the 16-rayed flag again, but why would some jerk insult many good and devoted Macedonians because they respect the current flag and feel no grievance of using it.
We are those who give the character to the flag, not opposite. I'm Macedonian and I see myself as loyal one and I say this is also our flag.

[TrueMacedonian]

as a macedonian nation and people we are the decendents of the ancient macedonians that is our great macedonian history. It is true that there is a couple of people in amhrc that beleive that todays macedonians are slavs that speek slavic and they have stated it, i hope that they get rid of these people. MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE MACEDONIAN ALAPAHBET MACEDONIAN CULTURE MACEDONIAN RELIGON MACEDONIAN HISTORY ENOUGH OF THIS SLAV SHIT !

Dimo with all due respect do you know anything about the AMHRC and their work? How they have fought tooth and nail to stop the "slav" identifier before the word Macedonian?

[DIMO]

i wasnt having a go at amhrc as an organisation, but a couple of individuals that in the past have reffered to the macedonians as slavs

[Prolet]

Dimo, Which individuals?

[DIMO]

prolet, i dont wana name people but we have disscused on this forum about two inviduals in amhrc

[indigen]

The underlined word is the key point here, in my opinion. After all of the events, turmoil, etc that the Balkans have experienced since Roman times, there is no way possible that anybody can claim to be the direct descendant of an ancient people. However, there is only one nation today that can legitimately claim to be the heirs of Macedonia's ancient (and subsequent) heritage, and that is the Macedonians. That's where I stand. The ancient Macedonians are the primary ancestors of today's Macedonians, but there is no doubt that there are also other elements in our heritage. What we should be looking at here, aside from DNA, is the percentage of 'other' elements with regard to culture, language, etc.

I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage, which without a doubt exists in present day Macedonians! Thus I can confidently state/claim that Macedonians of today, in the main, ARE DIRECT DESCENDANTS of OUR GLORIOUS AND LEGENDARY ANCIENT MACEDONIAN PREDECESSORS! There is no claim to blood "purity" or "unbroken" statehood but if mt-DNA and/or Y-chromosome tests are done and they point to indigenous Balkan (Macedonian Peninsula) roots, that is all that is needed to give us a DIRECT CONNECTION to our indigenous heritage, and this is how it is interpreted in every other case. I don't see why Macedonians should be the exception in this type of analogy and to foist upon themselves DENIGARTINGLY RIDICULOUS "MONGREL-BREED" theories such as CP has been propagating.

I don't believe the Macedonian identity was a completely new 'phenomena'. However, after centuries of belonging to empires that based their identities on religion rather than ethnicity, the Macedonian (and other) people were largely referring to themselves as Christians. Although there is no doubt that the Macedonian identity existed prior to the French Revolution (as indicated in documents relating to Macedonian emigrants that travelled to Russia and Austria, for example), after this point (as Popov says, in the age of nationalism) it began to completely rejuvenate itself among the masses of people and come into more regular use, as Macedonians continued their efforts of liberation.

Indigen, would you agree or disagree with what I have written above?

SOM, you are trying to be a peacemaker between two strong and uncompromising/incompatible Macedonia ideological currents and your attempt is doomed to failure from the outset. No fence-sitters allowed in this ideological war! :-)

No "Slav" and "Tatar" (imagine that?) grafts for me, thank you very much! MONGREL-BREED = anti-Macedonian propaganda!

-----------

So that we know fully where C. Popov (and his fellow travellers) are ideologically grounded, I post the following excerpt:

Contemporary Greek Government Policy on the Macedonian Issue and Discriminatory Practices in Breach of International Law

Dr Chris Popov and Michael Radin
(Signed: With compliments, C. Popov)
On behalf of the Central Organisational Committee for Macedonian Human Rights, Thessaloniki.

Central Organisational Committee for Macedonian Human Rights, Australian Sub-Committee, Melbourne, 1989. [Publisher]

The Macedonian People
The Macedonian people have emerged from one of four major linguistic Indo-European groups of Europe, known as the Slavs. As such, modern Macedonians are related to other Slavonic groups, the Eastern Slavs (Russians, Belo-Russians, and Ukrainians), Western Slavs (Poles, Slovaks, Ruthenians and Sorbs) and Southern Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Bulgarians).

The late fifth and early sixth century onwards witnessed the mass migration of numerous Slavonic tribes into the Balkan peninsula. Initially the Slavonic tribes of Macedonia, known collectively as “Sclaveni” did not refer to themselves as Macedonians despite the need to distinguish themselves from the neighbouring Serbian and Bulgarian tribes who were developing separate ethno-specific paths. When the literature of the Renaissance revived the classics, cartographers restored the name Macedonia to the area inhabited by Macedonians. Thereafter, the Slavs adopted the name to distinguish themselves geographically from their neighbours. With the advent of European nationalism after the French Revolution, an ethnic factor crept into the name.

In the last century, the term “Macedonian” in an ethnic sense was erroneously applied to other ethnic groups resident in Macedonia, such as Vlachs, Jews, Armenians and Greeks, although it was primarily used in relation to Slavs. Since that time it has been used to refer directly and exclusively to Macedonians of Slavonic descent. The recent attempt to apply it in an ethnic sense to Greeks and Bulgarians is merely a deliberate political strategy to deny Macedonian ethno-specificity and uniqueness. The description of Macedonians as Slavs is merely generic. Whilst the culture and language are essentially Slavonic, Macedonian ethno-specificity takes precedence in this group's self-identification. Its Slavonic origins are merely a backdrop to expression of Macedonianess, in the same way that they are for poles, Russians, Serbs and other groups of the Slavonic family.

Therefore, in an ethnic sense, a Macedonian is a Macedonian-speaking person of Slavonic descent from any of the current four regions of homeland or ethnic Macedonia, whereas Greeks and Bulgarians may use the term as a regional or geographical indicator only.



http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1de...989_rprt_1.pdf File size: 3.82 MB

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1de...989_rprt_2.pdf File size: 4.09 MB

Few pages scanned as image files and compiled as 2 pdf files from the 1989 text “Contemporary Greek Government policy on the Macedonian Issue and its Discriminatory Practices in Breach of International Law” prepared by the Australian representatives of an international delegation for submission to representatives of the European Community and the Council of Europe during a meeting that was ( to be) held in Brussels, Belgium in May 1989. The excerpts contain front cover to page ten and includes contents list, Introduction and Historical Perspective (which may be of interest to those that want to see how our ethnogenesis was perceived and presented by this delegation).

[Bratot]

We can discuss about indigenous population on the BALKANS but we have no right to aply genetical marker to a counscious designation of the people nor to deny someones right to be and feel Macedonian because of genetical difference.

The modern or ancient boundaries were not drawn by genes nor the counsciousness could have been conditioned from same reasons.

[TrueMacedonian]

We can discuss about indigenous population on the BALKANS but we have no right to aply genetical marker to a counscious designation of the people nor to deny someones right to be and feel Macedonian because of genetical difference.

The modern or ancient boundaries were not drawn by genes nor the counsciousness could have been conditioned from same reasons.

Well said Bratot Your post speaks volumes. I hope more Macedonians can read your post and put two and two together.

[Risto the Great]

Radin & Popov are older than me. I have no reason to doubt the article was written circa 21 years ago. They were extremely active then. I will chat to Radin about this in due course. I am quite sure that the volume of new information available over the last 21 years would impact upon that statement.

Having said that, the following statement sits fine with me if interpreted from a linguistic grouping perspective (Which is what was stated in the first sentence):

Its Slavonic origins are merely a backdrop to expression of Macedonianess, in the same way that they are for poles, Russians, Serbs and other groups of the Slavonic family.

It falls over when it is clouded by some "cultural" linking to Slavonic in my opinion.

The danger with making any statement that mentions the realities of population movements in Europe is that it somehow is deemed to be far more relevant to Macedonia than anywhere else. The preface to any statement like that is or should always be aimed at our detractors by declaring they have been influenced or interfered with by at least the same amount.

Macedonians can't get a break. Mention "slav" anywhere and they immediately have a new name. I have never heard about Slav Poles, Slav Russians etc. I understand how any such mention of "slav" does not help us. To deny the slavic linguistic commonality is silly. To make a slavic cultural connection is equally silly.

I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage

Do you mean indigenous cultural heritage in the above statement? What does that mean?

Indigen, you set a very high benchmark for Macedonianess. I am almost scared to have my DNA tested, I might have some Roman genetic markers in me from when Dedo Augustus had a fling in Macedonia once.

[indigen]

Radin & Popov are older than me. I have no reason to doubt the article was written circa 21 years ago. They were extremely active then. I will chat to Radin about this in due course. I am quite sure that the volume of new information available over the last 21 years would impact upon that statement.

It was not my intention to include Radin in this current forum scuffle as I have no idea whether he still upholds the views of 20 or so years ago but the original referenced document has his authorship on it. I have no current issues with Radin (at this stage) and apologise for having to drag his name into the MTO spotlight.

Do you mean indigenous cultural heritage in the above statement? What does that mean?

We have indigenous cultural heritage and evolving indigenous cultural heritage (which would be the major part of it) inherited from our predecessors, Christian religious traditions being a significant part of it due to the fact that the first roots of Christianity in Europe are in Macedonia.

Indigen, you set a very high benchmark for Macedonianess. I am almost scared to have my DNA tested, I might have some Roman genetic markers in me from when Dedo Augustus had a fling in Macedonia once.

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Macedonians will have one form or another of "direct" indigenous genetic heritage, have no fear. IME, the net can be cast very, very wide indeed. Y-chromosome and mt-DNA, where applicable, and being only one aspect of genetic ancestry mapping, should be used to defend our identity without silly phobias about claiming "direct' descent from indigenous roots.

SOM: "However, there is only one nation today that can legitimately claim to be the heirs of Macedonia's ancient (and subsequent) heritage, and that is the Macedonians. That's where I stand. The ancient Macedonians are the primary ancestors of today's Macedonians...."

This is where I also stand and from which basis ALL my other views are, IMO, firmly rooted.

NB: RTG, I fully agree with your earlier point that this discussion ended up in a lousy thread topic!

[Pavel]

"No "Slav" and "Tatar" (imagine that?) grafts for me, thank you very much! MONGREL-BREED = anti-Macedonian propaganda!"

indigen says this but like others have pointed out he has posted pro slav evidence of slav and tatar invasion of the balkans on this forum. i think that makes him nothing short of ridiculous!!

it is without question one of the most insane contradictions i have seen on this forum.

everyone on earth has mongrel background. someone who talks alot about mongrels, and places genes over culture does not know what he is talking about. culture makes identity not genes. mongrels, purebreds, genes and military take over of the macedonian govt, that is indigen and that sounds exactly like a neo nazi!!