Greek Nationalism Out of Control

[Amphipolis]

Do you have more informations about that? I'm interested.

(After searching and searching)

I’m sorry I couldn’t find what I had in mind (something specifically about the name) so it’s possible I have confused it with something else. I’m a bit confused whether you officially took the name (Socialist Republic of Macedonia) in 1944 (i.e. exactly after liberation) or 1946, so that I can search the correct period.

Other than that the Greek-Yugoslavian diplomatic relationships DID start troubled and DID include the Macedonian Question. Tito officially spoke of inclusion of Greek Macedonia in Yugoslavia, or a Union with Bulgaria, or a United Macedonia. There was of course a Greek reaction but (a) all this is not exactly about the name; it’s far more serious, (b) during some critical events Greece may not have a real Government yet.

For instance this is an American document from December 1944, I don’t know if this is the period we should search for.

U.S. Secretary of State Edward Stettinius to U.S. Missions
(Washington, Dec.26, 1944)

The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers

The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive action at this time.

The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an “autonomous Macedonia”, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state.

This Government considers talk of “Macedonian nation”, “Macedonia Fatherland”, or “Macedonian national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a “Macedonian state.” Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or Group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian forces” against Greece. The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.

Stettinius

[Amphipolis]

Greece DIDN'T know what to make of the symbol because it only annexed Macedonian land just decades before the Vergina discoveries.
it took greece up to 1995 to figure out that it had to protect it as a state symbol. the fact that greece was successful in obtaining this is indicative of a shambolic european union.
This is just another reason why greece is re-active against all things Macedonian.
Your still trying to find your feet and figure out who you are.

Copyrighting names and symbols was indeed a new thing for Greece. I believe we easily won the symbol battle because no one abroad would take your side. It was obvious that

(a) you had never used this symbol in the past,

(b) the symbol is related to Greece and Ancient Macedonia,

(c) no country or institution in the world would buy or support your theories

Lastly, European Union specifically has nothing to do with this issue.

[George S.]

Rubibish Amphipolis your whole argument is false.Why did your ex presidents travel around the world telling nations not to recognize rom and that everything is greek.I'm fully aware of all this,i remember the book 4000 years of greek history by leo martis minister for northern Greece all lies and bs about how Macedonia was greek.Its not related to Greece when did you inhabit northern Greece before not counting your greek outposts.??
You believe your greek propaganda we don't.
Undeniable fact Macedonians and greeks were /are a separate race of people,
If you belive not then you are a fool.
Throughout rom there was sun symbols all over rom,churches etc.You know there were other palaces Macedonian ones in rom not just northern Greece.
Macedonia was forced to capitulate to give up her own symbol.Fact greeks call it the star of vergina.Its not a star as such it is the Macedonian sun symbol.That is a fact.
The 16 rays are the 16 different Macedonian tribes,I bet you don't know this.
Another fact overlooked is the Macedonian sun symbol was reserved for Macedonian royalty and not for the greeks who resented Macedonian rule and hated the Macedonians vehemently.You are wrong on c You go on as if anything else is greek which is bs.Lastly you are wrong the eu has opposed Macedonian ascencion because Greece has opposed Macedonia it is doing greeces bidding give up the symbol,give up
the name.We have allways had the sun symbol in Macedonia .Another overlooked fact
is Greece simply acquired the symbol where have they used it.What they are state symbols?Aquired by thievery by a gypsie people.
Glad that you admit to Greece newly acquired thieving skills.
How about William Gladstone said Macedonia for the Macedonians 100 years ago.He didn't say Macedonia for the greeks did he?
Greece wants to do the same is monopolise the name as its all greek.Look at the naming of Macedonia as fyrom ,the fyrom Amphipolis why doesn't your country adopt a stupid name like fyrom we don't care about that.
if only it were all true when one looks at the detail you are nothing but greek fakes,you are all wanabees ,morons,You take something that doesn't belong to you and you lie to your selves and to the world.

[Amphipolis]

It does seem to discuss secret funds disappearing since 1989. Hence my mention of the 1980's. In all honesty, I do not believe all of it was used for Macedonian propaganda. I believe some of it was. But I suspect the majority of it was typical Greek thievery wrapped up in some kind of justification that might appease the masses.

Interesting that the justification used was to ensure Macedonia was thought of as Greek. If you are going to sell such thievery to your constituents, you may as well use the Macedonian issue that has kept Greeks distracted for decades. In other words, steal the money and say it was to prove Macedonia is Greek ...

I believe Samaras publicly acknowledged that a large amount of money was paid to publishers, journalists and local officials.

The 90's reflected a terrible and amplified brand of nationalism in Greece. And Macedonia was a massive part of that. I can't see how anyone would deny this (unless you were a Greek).

LOL, I didn’t want to sound as a Samaras supporter now, but here’s my view. A SECRET action or transaction that involves three important people (in knowledge and approval) seems fine to me and a whole 10-15 member committee would be unnecessary (if not a risk). I agree it’s not black and white, but if Mitsotakis is right it means that (a) Samaras is a thief (b) Samaras is a traitor and (c) You are lucky, because the money that would be used against you went elsewhere.

It seems no one believes me but except for the early 90s the Macedonian Question has not been high in the political agenda in Greece. It’s never on the top 10 issues and the whole thing seems frozen, not forgotten but frozen. Thus, it’s not used as a distraction to anything.

So, as all the boxes were being ticked in the Greek Convergence Programme of the 1990's, you think nobody was getting nervous about the statistics in Greece?

This kind of talk will never be heard in Greece for 100 years:

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/pdf/20_scps/1998-99/01_programme/el_1998-12-01_sp_en.pdf

So cringe-worthy looking back now!

Will you insist that Greece was in no way answerable to the EEC during the 1990's, specifically in relation to qualifying for Euro Zone entry the following decade?

The Convergence Programme had economic targets exactly for adopting Euro Currency.

The mid-late 90s and early 00s (Simitis era) were swift and stable. That means Economy was going well without serious social conflicts or risks.

The numbers you see in the document are correct (not falsified or masked) and only one of them is interesting enough to focus on, the deficit that slowly dropped from a regular 8 or 10 or 15% (as it was in the 1980s) to something like 3-5%.


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[Stojacanec]

Amphipolis,

No institution or country in the world was held to a vote on who should obtain legal title of the symbol. This is a baseless comment on your behalf.

Greece used an econcomic embargo to cripple a land locked country to achieve its goal of removing the use of the symbol on our flag. Is this what you mean by easily winning the symbol battle?

History proves that Ancient Macedonians have faught against any greek state advance or control. Therefore Anceint Macedonia should not be confused with a modern day greece.

Whats more, the Venetians feel differnt to the modern day Italians and have a sense of independence. The Catalonians want to seperate from modern day Spain because they are historically not the same. States have broken away from an annexed Russia. So too Macedonians do not feel greek. Although we are now segregated, due to recent treaties we should not be confused as being greek. The examples of similar occurences around Europe are endless.

[Amphipolis]

Undeniable fact Macedonians and greeks were /are a separate race of people,

I wouldn’t tell that to Alexander the Great.

The 16 rays are the 16 different Macedonian tribes,I bet you don't know this.

You bet right. This isn’t so. This is a modern myth. The one who wrote it first, should (learn from Greece and) copyright it.

Glad that you admit to Greece newly acquired thieving skills.

Actually, I admitted we learnt about copyright, which indeed has something to do with thieves.

[George S.]

Its amazing the eu how it let you people in the eu without conditions like respecting borders,human rights etc .We could say the same for any other membership.Nowdays you can simply bully the other person into submissionms for ymbols flags and identity.Again let me tell you and others are fools and add you are morons and you aren't Macedonian you never were,You assume you are but you live in a cuckooland.Dont forget there is a saying everydog has his day we are looking towards it so far you are facing dussapointment and failure.
You are simply deniers and are paranoid you wont last as the world has a poor view of you.Cradle of civilizarion??more like thieves as isaid our day is coming.
You are simply siding with the greek govt propaganda machine that's not new.

[George S.]

Speaking a language doesnt make you a particular race.You are wrong in your claim that macedonians only spoke greek.False they had their own mother tounge called macedonian.Even your greek writers admit the macedonians and greeks were not the same .If they were they would have fought with the greeks against troy.Also the greeks arent sure who they are.Prior to 1832 before greece was called a greek nation the greeks lived a loose city states constantly fighting each other.Macedonia was not part of the city states.A history lesson for you.
Also macedonians and greeks were not the same as the two were seperate roman provinces.As mentioned the greeks didnt know who or what they are they called themselves romaoi romans how crazy is that.Also along with other countries split up a whole macedonia in 1913 that it belonged to them and they felt they were liberating it (for themselves)much against the tide that macedonia wanteda free macedonia with autonomy.Many years before greeks forget that the krushevo republic was declared.
Prior to that william gladstone declared macedonia for the macedonians.Also in st petersburg the macedonnian diaspora there asked the Tsar to help give macedonia autonomy.I bet you didnt know that,Also despite greeces fake claims the people in the agean that were thrown out of their homes and dispossed of their ancestral lands have mounted a class action against the greek govt.They are winning at court.
Where is your bs propaganda and your crap to save you now.You people are stupid,you are morons for thinking you can rob a people of their historical entitlements and their assets,you are a joke.Heres hoping that because you are a stubborn people and od is watching
to punish you for your genocide on the macedonian people.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis,

No institution or country in the world was held to a vote on who should obtain legal title of the symbol. This is a baseless comment on your behalf.

Greece used an econcomic embargo to cripple a land locked country to achieve its goal of removing the use of the symbol on our flag. Is this what you mean by easily winning the symbol battle?

I have a memory of a statement by Gligorov (?) explaining WHY he retreated in the flag issue saying something like that “Whoever we spoke to about this (internationally) we found no support or sympathy. Everyone was against us”. I couldn’t find this, so maybe if I just imagined it, I apologize. The Vergina Star flag was adopted later (there was a different flag before it) and was presented by Greece as an aggressive move intensifying the name dispute.

History proves that Ancient Macedonians have faught against any greek state advance or control. Therefore Anceint Macedonia should not be confused with a modern day greece.

So did Athens, or Sparta or Thebes

Whats more, the Venetians feel differnt to the modern day Italians and have a sense of independence. The Catalonians want to seperate from modern day Spain because they are historically not the same. States have broken away from an annexed Russia. So too Macedonians do not feel greek. Although we are now segregated, due to recent treaties we should not be confused as being greek. The examples of similar occurences around Europe are endless.

I don’t think we have a problem of Macedonian separatism. Rainbow Party has less than 1% in Macedonia and does not have a separatism agenda.

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[George S.]

Amphipolis you are wrong its not the star of vergina.Its the sun symbol of kutlesh get it right ITs the MACEDONIAN SUN SYMBOL it is a distict symbol it wasn't greek at all greeks never knew until 1978when Andronicus found it in kutlesh.Your made up name on the run vergina.You don't own it was legacy to the Macedonian people.You just stole it from them.You must be really proud you hellene,you should be proud of yourself taking what doesn't belong to you.

[George S.]

""I don’t think we have a problem of Macedonian separatism. Rainbow Party has less than 1% in Macedonia and does not have a separatism agenda." you forced people to assimilate.They couldn't speak Macedonian.You changed their names not only that you forced some out of the country into exile,banished forever from their ancestral lands.Not only that many people who have gone to northern Greece know there are far more people than you claim of one percent hardly knew when we know that the Bulgarians are doing the same thing is understate the Macedonian population.Also you told the world that only greeks live in Greece and its 100% homogenous.That was a lie .How should we believe you about anything else.Can you be really trusted????

[Stojacanec]

Amphipolis, you need to understand the context of what Gligorov said. The average outsider would't give a toss about the dispute of the symbol. There were no ally's for Macedonia allowing greece to place an embargo and remove the symbol under duress. Your thoughts about how "the world" sided with greece is a romantic fiction story.

Didn't Alexander send back all the people fighting a Greek camaign after the battle of Gargamella? I have to research again which historian mentioned this in an interview.
I guess Alexander got what he needed from the greeks, ie their ships to sail across the Mediterranean etc. By this time he had enough Persian slaves. Smart guy for using the greeks for this leg of the campaign.


I was not talking about Macedonian separatism, that's just your insecurity speaking. I am mearly referring to other provinces within European countries that do not feel as one ethnic mold under modern day borders. As I said, the examples are vast.

[George S.]

Greek nationalism aided and abetted by the greek govt.Its one manufactured to counteract the macedonian rom existence.The people themselves are being told that they are it the ancient mythical beast which is far from the truth.The trouble is people beleive it from day one.Some people get into a frenzy about it.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis, you need to understand the context of what Gligorov said. The average outsider would't give a toss about the dispute of the symbol. There were no ally's for Macedonia allowing greece to place an embargo and remove the symbol under duress. Your thoughts about how "the world" sided with greece is a romantic fiction story.

First of all, I couldn’t certify this was a Gligorov quote, but I disagree about the rest. Every country (e.g. Italy or United Kingdom) had a positon on the name dispute and possibly on the flag (as the conflict was escalating). That would include official announcements of foreign governments and also statements by politicians and intellectuals, newspaper articles, scientific papers etc.

Didn't Alexander send back all the people fighting a Greek camaign after the battle of Gargamella? I have to research again which historian mentioned this in an interview.
I guess Alexander got what he needed from the greeks, ie their ships to sail across the Mediterranean etc. By this time he had enough Persian slaves. Smart guy for using the greeks for this leg of the campaign.

I don’t really understand. I’m not an Athenian, or an ancient Athenian. We consider Alexander as Greek and (I thought) he considered himself a Greek too.

[George S.]

Where did alexander say he was a greek he was a Macedonian you got your wires crossed.
Why did Demosthenes call phillip a barbarian a non greek.
At best there is some phillhelenic feeling.Phillip also considered himself a Macedonian.
Amphipolis you are totally wrong.If Macedonians and greeks are the same why did the greeks try and change texts bribe journalists/professors etc.??why/why.?
Also outsiders were banned from participating in the Olympics they made an exception to alexander or phillip.Amphipolis you are wrong how can one race be another race of people?You cant be two races or you cant say its all greek.