Early Paleo-Balkan Influences in Hellenic Communities

[Epirot]

Epirot, I took the liberty of creating the thread - SoM.




Hello SoM,

I think it would be better to reform again the title and direction of this thread from 'Early foreign influences...in Paleo-Balkan communities' to 'Early Illyrian, Thracian and Macedonian influence to Hellas'.
We are acquainted already with the fact that Hellenic traces on both Illyria, Macedon, Thrace and Scythia are product of great colonial expansion of Greeks from VIII B.C onwards. But in other hand, we know little for the influence of Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians in what became as Hellas.

I am so nervous that I did not put in my bookmark a meaningful citation I found in an online book that says approximately as following: 'Macedonians were civilized much earlier than Greeks'. In my opinion, this is not groundless, because Hellenes owed not only their origin but even many of their traditions and achievements to Illyrians, Thracians, Macedonians and Phrygians. I am tired of hearing again and again the 'Hellenic influence', Hellenic 'advantages' to the 'backward peoples', Greek cultural 'superiority' to the 'primitive' less civilized barbarians and similar crap.

Why everyone deliberately avoid from searching the other side of coin: Of what degree was the influence of Illyrians, Thracians and Macedonians given to the Greeks?

I am sure that we need just a simple analysis to observe that the above-mentioned people not only influenced Greece for very beginning but a number of 'Greek' achievements are in fact Illyrian, Macedonian and Thracian.

[Epirot]

I shall bring some significant evidences showing the high-advanced civilization of northern Barbarians (Macedonia, Illyris and Thrace) in addition with Hellas.

The race that in the early age of Greece inhabited Macedonia was probably related to the Thracians and the Phrygians. It was of Aryan stock (as the remains of the language prove), but not Hellenic — that is, neither Achaean nor Doric.

Ancient Greece: a sketch of its art, literature & philosophy ...1922, p.423

...and this one confirms that North Balkans people (most likely Illyrians) were metal-using while many regions of what was called later as Hellas were shrouded in backwardness...


Prehistoric Thessaly Being Some Account of Recent Exavations and ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=9PM8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA249&dq=macedonia+civilisation+backwardness+greece&hl=en&ei=SVwzTYrXEcSRswbK4PCQCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Pelasgian&f=false

Now after I found the citation I was interested of, let pay some attention on it:

The Macedonians were a civilized people long before the rest of the Greeks, and were, in fact, their instructors ; but the Greeks afterwards so far excelled them, that they regarded them as barbarians.

Encyclopædia americana: a popular dictionary of arts, sciences, ...: Volume 8 - Page 178

Francis Lieber, Edward Wigglesworth, Thomas Gamaliel Bradford - 183

First up, the expression 'Macedonians...before the rest of the Greeks' can not sustain because Macedonians were entirely distinct people from Greeks. While it is very true that Macedonians were a civilized people long before the Greeks since archeological evidences speaks for highly civilization of both Phrygians, Illyrians and Thracians that was developed in the land of Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think it would be better to reform again the title and direction of this thread from 'Early foreign influences...in Paleo-Balkan communities' to 'Early Illyrian, Thracian and Macedonian influence to Hellas'.

Epirot, that is a good suggestion for a new thread, start one up, and we will keep this one specifically for Greek influences in Paleo-Balkan.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Early Paleo-Balkan Influences in Hellenic Communities

Here is something from John Wilkes in relation to this topic:

In general the linguistic evidence for Illyrians in Greece, Asia Minor and Italy is yet to be interpreted.

Until further studies are done, the Illyrian onomastic evidence in the above areas is yet to be determined, although surely there must be some sort of interaction given the information provided on the other thread.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is something else:

"And my justification is this. Even in the ancient poets and historians, those who wrote the purest Greek, one may find Persian words adopted because of there common use in the spoken language, such as " parasangs", "astands" and " angari " and "schoenos", musculine or feminine; this last is a measure of distance still so called among many people. I know too, of many Attic writers who use idioms of the Macedonians as a result of intercourse with them.”( Athenaeus .. Deipnosophistae, III. 121-122)

And the below, not directly related, but relevant nonetheless where it concerns the spread of Macedonian culture:

“Come now, turn your attention from things divine to the affairs of men….You will see that whole tribes and nations have changed their abodes. Why we find Hellenic cities in the very heart of barbarian countries? Why the Macedonian tongue among the Indians and the Persians?”( Seneca the Younger to Helvia on Consolidation VI 6 – VVI.1)

[Epirot]

SoM, I'd like to express my deep gratitude for opening such valuable thread!

Athenaeus's quote leaves no room for doubt that Macedonians as lords of Greeks for a long time influenced them even linguistically. Most of scholars repeat blatantly the Hellenization of Macedonian, but very few of them see the contrary process: the certain Macedonization of Greek language.

Also I found some interesting glimpses of Scythian invasion of Athens (something that I never heard before). Have a look at the below extract:

The Scythians were so powerful as to demand the attention of Alexander the Great before he could feel free to undertake his Asiatic invasion. At a still later period the Scythian hordes invaded Greece itself and even captured Athens.

The historians' history of the world: a comprehensive narrative of ...: Volume 2

[Epirot]

Even Thracians were settled in Hellas for the very beginning:

The presence in Classical Greece of Thracian cults and divinities or Thracian traces in various cults, notably in Boeotia and Arcadia, and of Thracian place-names, notably in Malis, Attica, Euboea and Arcadia, is susceptible of a simple explanation: the presence of Thracians. Furthermore, the memory survived of fights with invading Thracians, fights in Phocis, Boeotia, western Attica and Megara attimes close to the Trojan war. It seems reasonable to conclude that, after the Trojan wars, a Thracian incursion broke into Greece, and heavily defeated the defenders at least in Phocis, Boeotia and Attica; it may even have broken into the Peloponnese. Many of the survivors fled: from Orchomenus Minyans made their way to Munychia and Thoricus and thence overseas; and from Thebes and other Boeotian towns other refuges eventually made their way to Asia Minor. The traditions make it clear that while many used Attica as a staging area, many others emigrated from such Boeotian ports as Aulis. The Thracians were belieed to have maintained their grip for a time on Phocis and western Boeotia at the least, until the coming of the Boetians broke their power.

A history of Boeotia By Robert J. Buck, 1979, p.67-68

http://books.google.com/books?id=5Ada2TbJWM0C&pg=PA68&dq=The+Thracians+were+believed+to+have+maintained+their+grip+for+a+time+on&hl=en&ei=Uio0TZbBLoWk4Aaysri2Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Thracians%20were%20believed%20to%20have%20maintained%20their%20grip%20for%20a%20time%20on&f=false

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is footnote from the following link, which relates to the ancient Greek word for horse, which is 'ippos', and the suggestion that it may have been loaned from Illyrian:

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/hum/slavi/vk/halla-aho/problems.pdf

See GEW, DÉLG, s.v. †ppoj. Bonfante (1996) explains Greek †ppoj as an Illyrian borrowing and sees the true Greek reflex of Proto-Indo-European */ekw-o-/ in the proper name 'EpeiÒj (the builder of the Trojan horse). For different views on both †ppoj and 'EpeiÒj, see Woodhouse (1998) and Louden (1996:279-280).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is another Paleo-Balkan influence in Hellenic communities:

For some light reference from wikipedia, take it with a grain of salt, but I would assume that basic details at least would be correct or close to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus

Orpheus was a legendary musician, poet, and prophet in ancient Greek religion and myth. The major stories about him are centered on his ability to charm all living things and even stones with his music; his attempt to retrieve his wife from the underworld; and his death at the hands of those who could not hear his divine music. As an archetype of the inspired singer, Orpheus is one of the most significant figures in the reception of classical mythology in Western culture, portrayed or alluded to in countless forms of art and popular culture including poetry, opera, and painting.

To the Greeks, Orpheus was a founder and prophet of the so-called "Orphic" mysteries. He was credited with the composition of the Orphic Hymns, a collection of which survives. Shrines containing purported relics of Orpheus were regarded as oracles. Ancient Greek sources note Orpheus's Thracian origins, and archaeologists have interpreted finds within ancient Thrace as evidence of Orphic cult.

The earliest literary reference to Orpheus is a two-word fragment of the sixth-century BC lyric poet Ibycus: onomaklyton Orphēn ("Orpheus famous of name"). He is not mentioned in Homer or Hesiod. Most ancient sources accept his historical existence; Aristotle is an exception.

Pindar calls Orpheus "the father of songs" and identifies him as a son of the Thracian king Oeagrus and the Muse Calliope: but as Karl Kerenyi observes, "in the popular mind he was more closely linked to the community of his disciples and adherents than with any particular race or family".

Greeks of the Classical age venerated Orpheus as the greatest of all poets and musicians: it was said that while Hermes had invented the lyre, Orpheus perfected it. Poets such as Simonides of Ceos said that Orpheus' music and singing could charm the birds, fish and wild beasts, coax the trees and rocks into dance, and divert the course of rivers. He was one of the handful of Greek heroes to visit the Underworld and return; his music and song even had power over Hades.

Some sources credit Orpheus with further gifts to mankind: medicine, which is more usually under the aegis of Aesculapius; writing, which is usually credited to Cadmus and agriculture, where Orpheus assumes the Eleusinian role of Triptolemus, giver of Demeter's knowledge to mankind. Orpheus was an augur and seer; practiced magical arts, especially astrology, founded cults to Apollo and Dionysus and prescribed the mystery rites preserved in Orphic texts. In addition, Pindar and Apollonius of Rhodes place Orpheus as the harpist and companion of Jason and the Argonauts. Orpheus had a brother named Linus that went to Thebes and became a Theban.

According to Apollodorus and a fragment of Pindar, Orpheus's father was Oeagrus, a Thracian king; or, according to another version of the story, the god Apollo. His mother was the muse Calliope; or, a daughter of Pierus, son of Makednos. His birthplace and place of residence was in Pimpleia, Olympus. In Argonautica the location of Oeagrus and Calliope's wedding is close to Pimpleia, near Olympus. While living with his mother and her eight beautiful sisters in Parnassus, he met Apollo, who was courting the laughing muse Thalia. Apollo became fond of Orpheus and gave him a little golden lyre and taught him to play it. Orpheus's mother taught him to make verses for singing. Strabo mentions that he lived in Pimpleia. He is also said to have studied in Egypt.

Orpheus is said to have established the worship of Hecate in Aegina. In Laconia Orpheus is said to have brought the worship of Demeter Chthonia and that of the Kores Sōteiras (Greek,Κόρες Σωτείρας) savior maid.[clarification needed] Also in Taygetus a wooden image of Orpheus was said to have been kept by Pelasgians in the sanctuary of the Eleusinian Demeter.

[damian]

The question was studied by HAHN in the 19th century If I am not mistaken.