United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

Van,

Let's say hypothetically that Macedonia was in NATO in 2001-2002. Would Tetovo have erupted in Albanian violence? Yes or No?

Ans: No

Would the Orchid Agreement have ever happened if we were in NATO?

Ans: No

So, yes...we aren't in NATO, but we have to keep kissing Albanians rear ends as well. Which do you prefer?

Nikodim,

Do you know what NATO is? Do you know NATO history? NATO does not involve itself in internal law and order matters. Look at the IRA in the UK, or the Basque in Spain, the Corsicans in France or the Kurds in Turkey. NATO considers these domestic law and order issues. In the case of Turkey, NATO has even cut arms supplies to the Turks at various points.

As for you question re the UN, Macedonia needs to declare the Interim Accord void and announce its constitutional name as valid in all international organisations.

[Volk]

My question remains; Macedonia is admitted in the UN under FYROM. Do you advocate Macedonia leave this organization? Yes or no?

Funny how things go 360, we had this same debate with Tom earlier on the thread and on maknews... he refused to answer.

Tom,
By your logic Macedonia has already changed its name because its in UN under the fyrom.

I am pretty sure you already understand the regional dynamics enough to know the importance of NATO membership.

However I do not believe it is essential for our survival to the point that we must change our name, ever. Admittance under fyrom yes.

[Vangelovski]

However I do not believe it is essential for our survival to the point that we must change our name, ever.

Admittance under fyrom yes.

Typical UMD double-speak - don't change, but change.

So what are those "strong benefits" again?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Vangelovski & Volk, for the sake of clarity, please be aware that Nikodim is a Grkoman or a Bugaroman posing as a Macedonian, most probably the former.

Nikodim, it is OHRID you DICKHEAD, not 'Orchid'. As you have written it this way a number of times here, you are either being a moron or are that dumb to not realize your simplistic error, the likely case is that it is a combination of both, making you a dumb moron.

[NikodimMKD]

What do you base these answers on?

Is Spain a NATO member? Is Turkey? Is Belgium part of the EU?

You should have asked the question, "Was Serbia a NATO member"?

Ans: No...and we saw what happened with Kosovo.

Do you think this would have happened if Serbija was part of NATO?

Yes, Spain, Turkey, and Belgium have separatist movements as does Macedonia, but the difference is that Spain, Turkey, and Belgium will not be split up as Serbija, but there is no guarantee Macedonia will not because we are NOT IN NATO.

[Jankovska]

Is it just me or this is a bit blown out of proportion. I wasn't happy and still am not that Sekerinska is invited at the UMD conference, I wouldn't invite her personally no matter what panel she heads. But I am stuborn, annoying and a bit crazy so I'd do that.
When you work for a professional org like the UMD you can't really do that if someone decides to attend.
As for the name change I for one moment do not believe the UMD wishes or pushes for a name change however diplomaticly they have to support the negotations, the PM does, the president does, the whole bloody world does. If the UMD ever asks for a name change or agrees on one that will be suicide for them and a total betrayal all together.
On the other hand I am not denying they are soft, yes they are but that is how they choose to work. All of us hardcore nationalistic Macedonians can form a hardcore nationalistic org, the more the better isn't it. As for NATO and the EU no matter what name we are given we will not be accepted. So the sooner the Macedonian people realise that the better. IF we are accepted in EU under the name petkana borders come down, no restrictions, no rules, Egej nas se spoil.
Nato will bring closer ties, greater relationship and power to Macedonia even if our name is Petkana, will Greece ever allow for that to happen? NO.
As for the Albos in 2001 it was our own Crvenkovski (now his little puppet Rada that we adore much) made the war happen together with Bugarskiot predavnik.
That is why I think it's enough with the attacks and killing each other. Not too keen on the UMD soft approach, fine, make a hardcore org- I'll join.

[Risto the Great]

I know Jankovska. It can very quickly be blown out of proportion. But this mindset of compromise and acceptance is damaging our psyche. I simply cannot accept this professional politically correct soft approach whilst we see sovereign rights being eroded on a daily basis.

A hardcore organisation is definitely something that the diaspora wants. If the new organisation was called the UMD, it would be appropriate. If the Diaspora realistically had a choice, it would go for the "hardcore" approach. Anything less and it is a little embarrassing to be honest.

BTW Hardcore means an organisation that has respect for the Macedonian identity and does not shame its member's ancestors by playing games with compromises.

[King Makedon]

1. I think it's good that everywhere in the world exist macedonian Orgainizations.
2. I think it's not good that most of them have no contacts with the other organizations due typically macedonian disagreement by few several and idiotical issues of some leaders due individual personal problems, among the leaders itself.

3. Some crucial points of the macedonian agenda should be the same in every organization in the diaspora as well as inside macedonia itself.
So that no one can claim a betrayal of another brotherhood organization of macedonians worldwide.

4. younger Generations of the diaspora should meet each other for talks. The older generations will pass away and the younger generation sill succeed them, so it's unavoidable to unite the powers and start working together.

[Vangelovski]

Jankovska, what do you mean by "hardcore"? My view of an appropriate organisation is one that takes a principled stand on issues of national soveriegnty, democracy, justice and human rights - these are internationally codified principles. If that's what you mean by "hardcore", then what is UMD seeing as it doesn't respect any of these principles? What is the role of UMD seeing it upholds and supports the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, which are experiments that undermine international law and universally accepted principles and are choking Macedonian freedom?

[Vangelovski]

You should have asked the question, "Was Serbia a NATO member"?

Ans: No...and we saw what happened with Kosovo.

Do you think this would have happened if Serbija was part of NATO?

Yes, Spain, Turkey, and Belgium have separatist movements as does Macedonia, but the difference is that Spain, Turkey, and Belgium will not be split up as Serbija, but there is no guarantee Macedonia will not because we are NOT IN NATO.

Is Macedonia, Spain, Turkey or Belgium undertaking a program of mass human rights violations?

[Pelister]

Well the Macedonian government is also in favour of name change just to join Nato and the EU! UMD is only following the footstep of what the government is saying “we’re going to let the people make that choice in a referendum” which I think is a joke!

I think the relevent point here is that UMD advocates a name change. RTG said it really well " this mindset of compromise and acceptance is damaging our psyche." In other words, if UMD could change it, it would !! And why, to join NATO??Thats treason. What the Macedonian government is doing, has nothing to do with UMD's politics.

Asking UMD to stand behind, and act, on some basic principles, so that Macedonians can be defended, in principle; is proving to be an up hill battle.

UMD are lovers of Crvenko and his politics - I wouldn't be surprised if the organization is set up around Crvenko's view of the world, and his politics. It is looking more and more, like an arm of SDSM.

[Risto the Great]

I personally don't think the UMD wants anything changed.
I just can't understand how an organisation that promotes dialogue and compromise is going to capture the imagination of Macedonians in the Diaspora. Nor can I see how compromise and dialogue is useful to us in the Diaspora. Hence why I question their belief that they represent the entire Diaspora.

[Volk]

I just can't understand how an organisation that promotes dialogue and compromise is going to capture the imagination of Macedonians in the Diaspora. Nor can I see how compromise and dialogue is useful to us in the Diaspora. Hence why I question their belief that they represent the entire Diaspora

Thats an interesting point Risto... What should an organisation represent to capture as you called it the imagination of the diaspora??

Should they call for a united Macedonia?? should they lobby for name recognition? should they be far right? would they be heard then?

The greeks are all far right and they are heard, because they have substantial money behind them, we on the other hand dont...

[Risto the Great]

Thats an interesting point Risto... What should an organisation represent to capture as you called it the imagination of the diaspora??

Should they call for a united Macedonia?? should they lobby for name recognition? should they be far right? would they be heard then?

The greeks are all far right and they are heard, because they have substantial money behind them, we on the other hand dont...

If it is a Diaspora organisation, it should be created with the interests of the Diaspora placed first and foremost. The diaspora does not want any compromises and dialogue with people who seek to dismiss or dilute our identity. Members of the Macedonian diaspora are far more self-empowered the longer they stay away from the victim mentality that is prevalent in Macedonia. My belief based on visits to Macedonia is that we clearly have different levels of expectation.

On unification, here is an acceptable statement for me:
"It is our complete preference for unification of all Macedonian lands. Where this is not possible, we will remind and enforce nations of their legal and moral obligations to their Macedonian minorities."

You see, this is the diaspora talking ... not Macedonia. Who exactly are we being nice for? Will the UN not let our little diaspora organisation sit at the table? It won't anyway. Why can't the diaspora organisation be the hard edge of a political ideal in Macedonia? Is this ideal so difficult? The UMD could move to this mentality in 2 quick paragraphs and then, like a virus, the "disease" will spread.

If I was given a form to sign up for my new diaspora organisation that said the following:

1/ We stand for no compromises in relation to our identity. As a consequence, any change to our name will be interpreted as a complete attack on everything we and our ancestors have stood for.

or

2/ We accept that a change to the name like "Democratic republic of Macedonia", whilst not perfect, may help us to move forward in the hope that no further pressure will exist in the future such that we will have to consider another kind of name in the future. But we Macedonians will always know who we are anyway.

I will take 1. and I bet you will too.


I could give a rat's arse whether this is construed as "right" or "left" or whatever. It is simply based on a belief system that we Macedonians had been victims of external influence and we choose not to look outside for acceptable solutions anymore.

Wo cares what Greeks do? Do you really think it is about lobby money? I am positive it has nothing to do with it.

[Vangelovski]

RtG

I think you're getting close to 'hitting the nail on the head' with the Macedonian 'victim mentality' idea. Others have referred to a 'slave mentality' or an 'inferiority complex'. Essentially, someone suffering from a slave mentality is generally governed by fear and is subservient to the more powerful, believing they can gain some favour for 'good behaviour', while completely disregarding their own dignity and rights (and of those around them). They look for a quick fixes and avoid any intellectual or physical labour.