Macedonia region census early 1900s

[Poligiros]

Of course he claims he is descended from the ancient Greeks. He is no different than a “friend” of mine from 20 years ago. A deluded elderly ethnic Macedonian (with origins from Salonika) who loved to spend his time arguing with me about Macedonia during work. Still fluent in Macedonian, after many years away from Greece, he believed that he was descended from the ancient Dorians and even tried to convince me of that fact. Even though we would argue, there was nevertheless a mutual respect there and, because of that, he would try desperately to convince me, that, as a Macedonian, I too am descended from the ancient Dorians but that my ancestors were assimilated by the invading Slavs.

This is the level of delusion that exists in these lost Macedonian souls. I try not to blame them however. I blame the naturally gifted and slick Greek salesman for this phenomenon.
There you go again. What is it with you Greeks, always trying to sell us your glorious ancient Greek forefathers? Accept it once and for all – F#CK OFF! WE’RE NOT BUYING!!!
“If you are proud Macedonian”…You sound like Satan during the Temptation of Jesus. For your information, we are proud Macedonians and only Macedonians. Now go away Satan and leave us alone. None of us are interested in what you have to sell.

Nice points and discussion. I am not sure on how the Hellenic government has ever pressured the Vlach in Greece into assimilationist policies (Vlach concentrated mainly in the Pindus mountains Epirus and Aegean Macedonia). As you said, they are model citizens, and the ones I have met tell me about their ancient Hellenic ancestry. They never attempt to exclude themselves from the Hellenic history and are quite nationalistic.

Your old Macedonian mate has a point, I honestly believe there is a much greater DNA, historical, personal and cultural resemblance between my type of Hellene (from Aegean Macedonia) and the Macedonian of Aegean Macedonia. Even in terms of physical resemblance and family members married in from Edessa, Florina and Igoumenitsa, some are dark, have Hellenic features but I cannot see any difference between these relatives who are bilingual speakers, and my family. What is your opinion?

As for ancient Greek forefathers, what I was suggesting is even if the ancient Macedonians were a distinct culture, ethnicity etc, they did adopt the Hellenic culture for trade and expansion, therefore you should embrace this aspect of Macedonian culture, in addition to Roman and other elements that comprise Macedonian history.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I'm not sure why I even bother but oh well...

I need to digest some of the irrational, ranting in your post.

Take as much time as you need, I know encountering truth, logical reasoning and rational thought doesn’t sit well with your kind.

Firstly, our DNA differs from the fact that your people adopted a Slavic idiom and culture

WTF is this supposed to mean?, do you even know what DNA is?

- suggesting that the slavic ethnic group that migrated to the region would likely have been a majority.

Where did I personally suggest that?, please quote where I did.

As the Australians are predominately Anglo descendants, the majority speak the English language. If you claim that the Hellenes have as much Slavic as you suggest, then why did we not adopt a Slavic culture and language??? If 10,000 Slavs moved to Macedonia from Russia and told me to learn Russian, I would tell them to jump. If 4,000,000 migrated to Aegean Macedonia, then I wouldn't have a choice!

Clearly you need to have a better look into your previous statements not to mention your history, there are many threads here that will enlighten you about what the situation in the Haemus Peninsula was prior to the inception of the great “Greek” experiment by Western European powers. Regardless the only language your people adopted is what is known now as modern Greek, forcefully and recently I might add. Still I don’t see how this has anything to do with what I stated before, but rather highlights the inconsistency of your narrative and incoherent thoughts, but luckily it’s something I’m used to since clearly јас ке ти речам тантале, ти ке ми велиш пантале

Secondly, my two grandparents who are native to Aegean Macedonia are not christian Turks. We have gone through this many times, and your statement about your people being the majority in "Aegean Macedonia" is incorrect.

Again you seem to be confusing who said what, this makes your responses seem, well irrational.

Refer to all the maps your countrymen posted on this thread? You were only the majority in the northern and some north western region of Aegean Macedonia and scattered in some central regions, and missing in coastal and southern regions. Why do we have to go around in circles? Also the maps in this post (that I purposely asked for early 1900s prior to population exchanges) display a large native Hellenic presence. Its illogical that the majority of Hellenes in Aegean Macedonia today are "christian turks" based on 1900-1921 census and maps showing large presence of native Greeks (that you will not accept anyhow).

I have and they clearly reveal that at that time, Macedonians were the majority in all of Macedonia, particularly in the areas surrounding its ancient capital Pella and medieval capital Solun. No one disputes that minorities also existed in Macedonia (that is a Greek phenomenon) or that the minorities loyal to the patriarchate (that may or may not have identified themselves as Romioi at one point in time) were primarly concentrated in the areas surrounding the Aegean coast line. The change in demographics within Greek occupied Macedonia since then has been well documented and still exists in the living memory of a lot of Macedonians since it included genocide, expulsion, torture, racial imprisonment, concentration camps, forceful assimilation policies and population exchanges, all performed by and at the discretion of a foreign invading government located in Athens in what is known as the Republic of Greece.

P.S. For a drone like yourself who appears incapable of exercising self thought, it might serve you better to refrain from speaking of “logic”, its clearly not one of your strong points and doesn’t do you any favours here.

Overall, I think that's where your problem lies... Due to the fact that us native northern Greeks have masters that reside in Athens!!!

Your allegiance is to Athens, a capital outside of Macedonia. Any Macedonian would have a problem with that, including Alexander.

To be honest, I feel at home in Thessaloniki, Athens is my Hellenic capital. I also feel as though Constantinople is also part of my ethos.

Well I assume its only natural that a recently assimilated Christain from Turkey would also feel at home in a city in Turkey.

Visiting Skope (the city), made me feel entirely detached from your culture, therefore I don't have an affinity with a south Slavic dialect (even if you feel its somehow related to ancient Macedonian??).

I’m not surprised that Turks who have assimilated as Greeks would feel detached from Macedonian culture, and the language is called Macedonian you piece of sh*t.

You are correct, Alexander uniting the Greeks was based on the condition that the rest of Greece was governed by Macedonian Rule, and they did bow to Pella!

The only uniting of the ancient Greeks Phillip II did was in opposition to Macedonian oppression, he conquered them, brutally, slaughtering thousands and made them bow to Macedonia and lick his boot heal. I understand you consider this to be an act of brotherly love, which I guess only highlights the reasoning why you feel detached from Macedonians and why we would naturally feel detached from someone as psychologically disturbed as you.

Dare I say it..... they spread a culture affiliated to Greek

How about you address Soldier of Macedon’s response to your dribble, I see how you conveniently ignored directly responding to it, yet somehow confused certain parts of it with mine.

As for homosexuality, I am no expert in the matter,

Don’t be modest

but think you would probably find an equal proportion in the Republic as you would in Aegean Macedonia. Alexander was apparently bi-sexual, what difference does it make, apparently its cool to be gay nowadays anyhow....

Like I said before, never go full retard…

[Poligiros]

I'm not sure why I even bother but oh well...


Take as much time as you need, I know encountering truth, logical reasoning and rational thought doesn’t sit well with your kind.

situation in the Haemus Peninsula was prior to the inception of the great “Greek” experiment by Western European powers. Regardless the only language your people adopted is what is known now as modern Greek, forcefully and recently I might add. Still I don’t see how this has anything to do with what I stated before, but rather highlights the inconsistency of your narrative and incoherent thoughts, but luckily it’s something I’m used to since clearly јас ке ти речам тантале, ти ке ми велиш пантале

this thread is not about me, however modern Greek commenced around 1100AD, prior to that Koine Greek was used. The Byzantine empire used Koine Greek too from what I have read. I am not aware of the "forcefully adoption of Greek".

I apologise for referring to your Macedonian language as a south-Slavic dialect, however I am absolutely intrigued how a non-slavic populace, who is a continuation of the indigenous peoples, adopts a Slavic language and culture? Can you elaborate on how and why this occurred? Do you believe that this language was a derivative of the original Macedonian language?

I have and they clearly reveal that at that time, Macedonians were the majority in all of Macedonia, particularly in the areas surrounding its ancient capital Pella and medieval capital Solun. No one disputes that minorities also existed in Macedonia (that is a Greek phenomenon) or that the minorities loyal to the patriarchate (that may or may not have identified themselves as Romioi at one point in time) were primarly concentrated in the areas surrounding the Aegean coast line.

The only aspect that I will agree on from looking at the census maps, is that you were the majority if you include northern macedonian lands in the republic. When I refer to the census and maps, my demarcation stops in Bitola, that was part of ancient Macedonia. Looking at the ancient Macedonia geographical area, its contested on who was the majority, Bulgarians, Ottomans and Hellenes would not agree with you either!

Your allegiance is to Athens, a capital outside of Macedonia. Any Macedonian would have a problem with that, including Alexander.

Well I assume its only natural that a recently assimilated Christain from Turkey would also feel at home in a city in Turkey.
I’m not surprised that Turks who have assimilated as Greeks would feel detached from Macedonian culture, and the language is called Macedonian you piece of sh*t.

Once again I dont understanding your point here. Am I an assimilated Turk, or can you actually admit that I may be part of the "Romioi" natives that existed in Aegean coastal regions? How can I embrace macedonian language if it wasnt spoken in my region? Why do you claim exclusivity to Macedonia, you obviously believe you need to speak the modern macedonian language to be one?



How about you address Soldier of Macedon’s response to your dribble, I see how you conveniently ignored directly responding to it, yet somehow confused certain parts of it with mine.

I will get around to it, I don't have all day to write, but I try to discuss with an objective basis.

[Tomche Makedonche]

this thread is not about me, however modern Greek commenced around 1100AD

LOL, Let me guess, you read this in your old leather books?

prior to that Koine Greek was used. The Byzantine empire used Koine Greek too from what I have read. I am not aware of the "forcefully adoption of Greek".

You?, probably not, but I’m sure your grandparents would.

I apologise for referring to your Macedonian language as a south-Slavic dialect

Don’t you try and patronise me you vile scumbag, you and I both know you’re not sorry about anything.

however I am absolutely intrigued how a non-slavic populace, who is a continuation of the indigenous peoples, adopts a Slavic language and culture? Can you elaborate on how and why this occurred? Do you believe that this language was a derivative of the original Macedonian language?

Putting aside your ignorant assumptions, there are many threads in this forum that delve into these matters, feel free to pursue them at your leisure.

The only aspect that I will agree on from looking at the census maps, is that you were the majority if you include northern macedonian lands in the republic.

Yes that is Macedonia, all Macedonian lands combined make up Macedonia, that’s sort of how it works, thank you for admitting we were the majority in Macedonia.

When I refer to the census and maps, my demarcation stops in Bitola,

Lol, yes being selective on what you wish to see, say and respond to is the most obvious trait you lot have isn’t it, hell why not stop your demarcation at Chalkidik?, that way you could say the majority appear to be “Greek”

that was part of ancient Macedonia.

Was Pella part of ancient Macedonia?, who were the majority there?

Looking at the ancient Macedonia geographical area, its contested on who was the majority, Bulgarians, Ottomans and Hellenes would not agree with you either!

That’s sort of what naturally eventuates when you all idiotically claim us as your own, especially when you decide to be selective in your subject matter.

Once again I dont understanding your point here. Am I an assimilated Turk, or can you actually admit that I may be part of the "Romioi" natives that existed in Aegean coastal regions?

Considering your stance on Macedonians, why the hell should I allow you any concessions on your own personal identity?, its clear to me that you are a Christian Turk, whose family was imported to Macedonian lands as part of the population exchanges and have now become just another assimilated Greek drone.. Baaaaa

How can I embrace macedonian language if it wasnt spoken in my region?

It was, long before you came along, and in line with your philosophy, you should look to embrace Macedonian culture and history

Why do you claim exclusivity to Macedonia,

Because I’m exclusively Macedonian, not some kind of hybrid make believe Turkish Greek Macedonian abomination

you obviously believe you need to speak the modern macedonian language to be one?

No, that’s your lot that absurdly try and dictate that language is the sole definition of ones ethnicity. Hence why right now I’m ethnically English .

I will get around to it, I don't have all day to write, but I try to discuss with an objective basis.

Yes you do have all day, and stop pretending you have any idea what objective means…

[Bill77]

If you claim that the Hellenes have as much Slavic as you suggest, then why did we not adopt a Slavic culture and language???.

indeed they did.
But you should ask where and how did it disappear?
Well This might help answer that question ......

"Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh…." (Greece The Spoilt Child Of Europe) http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=841

Poligiros...... If you find more time, Get stuck into this.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/greekmyth.html

It's a good read.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.....our DNA differs from the fact that your people adopted a Slavic idiom and culture........

Does the DNA of Sub-Saharan Africans who adopted French differ from their kinsmen that didn't? Does the DNA of Indigenous Americans who adopted Spanish differ from their kinsmen that didn't? Adopting another language doesn't change your blood. You're clearly too much a moron to understand this. That is where we differ.

As the Australians are predominately Anglo descendants, the majority speak the English language.

The inhabitants of French Polynesia are predominantly Polynesian. The inhabitants of the Republic of Congo are predominantly Bantu. In both cases, French people are but a tiny minority yet in both countries the official language is French. How does that fit into your deluded theories of DNA, language and culture?

......your statement about your people being the majority in "Aegean Macedonia" is incorrect.

Perhaps not today, what with all of the imports from modern Turkey. But in the past they most certainly were and denying this is the same as denying our existence. It won't be tolerated, particularly not from a clown like yourself who is just marginally able to contain his true racist tendencies.

Its illogical that the majority of Hellenes in Aegean Macedonia today are "christian turks" based on 1900-1921 census and maps showing large presence of native Greeks........

Given the history of the Patriarchate in Macedonia during the Ottoman period, it is the only logical position. Since the inception of modern Greece, that state has largely classified anybody in the region that adhered to the Patriarchate as a 'Greek' (or Roman or whatever). That is illogical.

Visiting Skope (the city), made me feel entirely detached from your culture, therefore I don't have an affinity with a south Slavic dialect

You're negating our identity.

I apologise for referring to your Macedonian language as a south-Slavic dialect, however.......

You've just done it again. There is no "however".

I am absolutely intrigued how a non-slavic populace, who is a continuation of the indigenous peoples, adopts a Slavic language and culture? Can you elaborate on how and why this occurred?

Let's go along with your stupid little game for a minute and assume that the above is the case. Why is it so intriguing that something like this can happen? Haven't I already cited the example of the English-influenced Celtic peoples, French-influenced African peoples and Spanish-influenced Indigenous Americans? Are they any less Celtic, African or Indigenous American because of this?

Personally, I am just about done covering the same ground with you time and again. The fact is, you are unlikely to change your racist ideology. You bring nothing new to the table, you can't even convey your position with a level of dignity and you serve no other purpose than to negate the Macedonian identity. Give me one reason why you should be considered relevant to this forum?

[Amphipolis]

• Ajvatovo (Liti) – 100% Macedonian
• Daut Bal (Paleokastron) – Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Dremiglava (Drimos) – Hellenized Macedonians
• Gjordino (Ksirohorion) – Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Gradobor (Pendalofos) – Mixed Macedonian (majority)/Prosfigi
• Jundzular/Junchii (Kimina) – 100% Macedonian
• Krdjilar (Adendron) – Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Kufalovo (Kufalija) – Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Kulakja (Pirgos/Chalastra) – Mixed Native Greek Majority/Hellenized Macedonians
• Laginovo/Lajna (Lagina) - Mixed Native Greek Majority/Hellenized Macedonians
• Novo Selo (Neohoruda) – 100% Macedonian
• Pejzanovo/Kirech Kjoj (Asvestohorion) – located on the southern limits of ethnic and linguistic Macedonia, Pejzanovo is 100% Macedonian (no prosfigi settled here). However, this very large Macedonian village has undergone a gradual but unabated Hellenization process since before the Balkan Wars and is today thoroughly Hellenized.
• Sarachevo (Valtahorion) - Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Tekelievo (Sindos) – Majority Prosfigi with some remaining although assimilated Macedonians
• Topchin (Gefira) - Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi
• Zorbatovo (Mikron Monastirion) – Mixed Macedonian/Prosfigi

The first half based on Lithoxoou website that aggregates all sources per village. I stopped at 1900-1905 before Balkan Wars, exchanges and refugees, but such details are also included in his (chaotic) site. He has one page per initial letter. Try google translation or ask me if you have any special interest.

http://www.lithoksou.net/t/xoria-tis-thessalonikis-2009

I kept the original characterizations which have an interesting variety. These are the villages of Karposh list in the same order, not necessarily the red villages of the map. Bulg and Gr refer to Bulgarian and Greek sources (more than one in each case).

Ajvatovo (Lyte, Lete)
Bulg: Bulgarian Patriarchists, one Greek school
Gr: Slav-macedonian, Slavic idiom, they use eloquently Greek language, “things going well in national conscience”

Daut Bali (Oreokastron)
Bulg: About 40%-60% Exarchists- Patriarchists, one Bulgarian, one Greek school
Gr: Slav-Macedonian dialect/language. The above proportions are presented around 25%-75%

Dremiglava (Dirmil, Siderokefalos, Drymos)
Bulg: Fully Greek, one Greek school
Gr: Greek, Greek language
(I don't understand why this is in Karposh list)

Gjordino (Koriten, Xerohorion)
Bulg: Fully Exarchist Bulgarian, one Bulgarian school
Gr: Full schismatic Bulgarian-likes

Gradobor (Pendalofos)
Bulg: Fully Bulgarian (75%-25% Exarchists, Patriarchists), one Greek, one Bulgarian school
Gr: Basically agrees. The two communities share the same church!

Jundzular (Junchides, Kimina)
Bulg: Fully Bulgarian (75% Patriarchists, 25% Uniates!!), one Greek school
Gr: Slav-Macedonian idiom, Greek conscience for Patriarchists. At the time of Gr. Sources Bulgaro-Uniates had almost eclipsed.

Krdjilar (Adendron)
Bulg: Fully Bulgarian Exarchists. According to other Bulg. Sources 15% gypsies
Gr: Slav-macedonian idiom. 2/3 of the village had to leave around 1880 under pressure of the beys. Greek school closed. The reports believe people have a hidden Greek conscience. Most people can speak Greek except for women and illiterates.

Kufalovo (Kufalija)
A well-known town but it seems Lithoxoou forgot them or I can’t find them. What will we do now?



===

[Poligiros]

Does the DNA of Sub-Saharan Africans who adopted French differ from their kinsmen that didn't? Does the DNA of Indigenous Americans who adopted Spanish differ from their kinsmen that didn't? Adopting another language doesn't change your blood. You're clearly too much a moron to understand this. That is where we differ.

The inhabitants of French Polynesia are predominantly Polynesian. The inhabitants of the Republic of Congo are predominantly Bantu. In both cases, French people are but a tiny minority yet in both countries the official language is French. How does that fit into your deluded theories of DNA, language and culture?

Perhaps not today, what with all of the imports from modern Turkey. But in the past they most certainly were and denying this is the same as denying our existence. It won't be tolerated, particularly not from a clown like yourself who is just marginally able to contain his true racist tendencies.

Given the history of the Patriarchate in Macedonia during the Ottoman period, it is the only logical position. Since the inception of modern Greece, that state has largely classified anybody in the region that adhered to the Patriarchate as a 'Greek' (or Roman or whatever). That is illogical.

You're negating our identity.

You've just done it again. There is no "however".

Let's go along with your stupid little game for a minute and assume that the above is the case. Why is it so intriguing that something like this can happen? Haven't I already cited the example of the English-influenced Celtic peoples, French-influenced African peoples and Spanish-influenced Indigenous Americans? Are they any less Celtic, African or Indigenous American because of this?

Personally, I am just about done covering the same ground with you time and again. The fact is, you are unlikely to change your racist ideology. You bring nothing new to the table, you can't even convey your position with a level of dignity and you serve no other purpose than to negate the Macedonian identity. Give me one reason why you should be considered relevant to this forum?

Hi SOM,

I am asking for factual evidence in discussions. I am not playing any "games". You are stating that Hellenes have a large Slavic historical component, more than the Republic of Macedonia. Using language as an identifier, logically Slavic invasions were a small minority and absorbed by the Greek majority of the day. Same goes for the Celtic and other tribal invasions throughout history.

You are suggesting modern Macedonian people aren't Slavic (or even less so than the modern Greeks), however its blatantly obvious they adopted a South-Slavic language and culture somewhere down the line? I am asking for the factual evidence or reputable evidence of the historical time period and the process that enabled this to occur?

Please don't give me examples of the Irish Celtics and the English, as DNA suggests they are a very similar people. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/sc...rits.html?_r=0

In Macedonian discussions, I ask for maps, census, valid historical recordings, inscriptions etc etc, not long winded examples of what might have occurred.

I have uses a pro-macedonian site... its a bit vague and I cannot ascertain any valid conclusions from this paper..

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/timeline.html

[DraganOfStip]

You are stating that Hellenes have a large Slavic historical component, more than the Republic of Macedonia...
..You are suggesting modern Macedonian people aren't Slavic (or even less so than the modern Greeks)...

This is a table of Y-DNA haplogroups by nations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group
Haplogroup R1a which is sometimes referred to as "Slavic haplogroup" (because it is found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (around 15%) AND Greek (as high as 22% in some areas) DNA.
What does this tell you?

Please don't give me examples of the Irish Celtics and the English, as DNA suggests they are a very similar people.

Well,by looking at the same table you can also see that all Balkan people are "a very similar people" too.And yet,they didn't adopt a mutual language,but differ significantly.
Next excuse,please.

[Karposh]

I think the Greek members of this forum will be particularly interested in my following observation regarding Greek-Macedonian relations, particularly in Greece today. I’d love to hear your comments on this as I really do believe it is the case.

I was holidaying in Macedonia during 2005 and I spent about 2 weeks visiting relatives in Gevgelija, in the far south-east of the republic. Most of my family is from Bitola but I have cousins in Gevgelija (through marriage) and a pleasant consequence of this is that I got my first real opportunity to visit Salonika (besides using it as a transit point to get to RoM) which is less than an hour’s drive away from this tiny border town.

Whenever they need something which they can’t find in Gevgelija, most of its inhabitants simply pop over the border to Salonika to find what they need. On this occasion, my cousin needed some parts for his car so he took me along for the ride. He has a basic command of Greek (not unusual in Gevgelija) and could get by if he had to use it.

However, with a smirk on his face, he told me that he refuses to speak Greek whenever he has dealings with the Salonika businessmen and always speaks to them in Macedonian. They all understand it he told me but the Grkomani refuse to answer back in Macedonian. And, as I witnessed for myself, to my absolute surprise, they did indeed understand everything he said to them. No pleasantries were ever exchanged. It was purely business and most refused to answer him back but, ironically, there was never any miscommunication and they always brought out the requested part.

From memory, we went to about 3-4 automotive/spare parts shops, an office building (can’t remember exactly what the purpose for that one was) and a Gyros food stall…BTW, best lamb gyros I’ve ever had, which was washed down with a Heineken while overlooking the bay of Salonika. There was the occasional “Nema” & “Nemame” but most served us without saying a word, careful (or reluctant) to answer us back in Macedonian.

I was stunned and asked my cousin if it was hit and miss whether people understood what he was saying or not and he replied that in fact he’s had a 100% strike rate and that everyone understood him in Salonika, even if most refused to answer him back. Even now, 10 years later, I still find this hard to believe. I keep reasoning to myself that perhaps, being shrewd businessmen, Greeks were becoming more pragmatic and learning some basic Macedonian to better deal with their customers from across the border that often frequent their businesses. Adopting a more sensible approach in dealing with the Skopjans makes good business sense I suppose.

So, what I think is going on is that, officially there is a lot of posturing and pig-headedness where neither side wants to lose face by backing down on the Macedonian issue. Unofficially, if my day out in Salonika is anything to go by, people are cooperating and learning to deal with each other in a civil and respectful way. Politics takes a back seat in favour of good business practices.

I couldn’t tell you for certain what ethnicity the people that served us were. They could all well have been Macedonians. Maybe some were Macedonians and others were Greeks, with some understanding of Macedonian. Or, maybe they were all Greeks who happened to pick up some basic Macedonian along the way from their mixed villages back in Lerin, Voden or Kostur, I don’t know. What I do know is that I felt as home in Salonika that day as I do whenever I am in Bitola.

[DraganOfStip]

That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me.
If there are are 2 things everyone here knows about Gervgelija it's 1)the warm weather and 2)casinos.It's the Las Vegas of Macedonia.
Greeks are the most frequent guests there,they could have picked something up from there.

[Amphipolis]

From memory, we went to about 3-4 automotive/spare parts shops, an office building (can’t remember exactly what the purpose for that one was) and a Gyros food stall…BTW, best lamb gyros I’ve ever had, which was washed down with a Heineken while overlooking the bay of Salonika. There was the occasional “Nema” & “Nemame” but most served us without saying a word, careful (or reluctant) to answer us back in Macedonian.

My family works in the same business (automotive, spare parts) and they have always had many customers from Yugoslavia, especially during socialism. Their customers were not simply consumers, but also retailers and in these products there was really good business.

So everybody understands them and can speak back basic things like "we don't have this", probably numbers and other simple stuff. As in any language understanding is easier than speaking it. I once asked my brother if this language is Macedonian or Serbian; he didn't know. He once took proud that after all these years, he can use and understand many words.

[Redsun]

Why do we turn our cheek only to be slapped again?

You are suggesting modern Macedonian people aren't Slavic (or even less so than the modern Greeks), however its blatantly obvious they adopted a South-Slavic language and culture somewhere down the line?

After you warned the idolater.

You're negating our identity.

You've just done it again. There is no "however".

Two offenses that have not been mentioned.

Public nuisance; and
Obstructing the course of Justice

This is a public forum, anyone here intent on denouncing our identity is a public nuisance.

Not only do they try to obstruct the course of justice, they persistently attempt to pervert it. Perverting the course of justice is as equivalently felonious as obstruction. Be aware, such perverted thoughts can only be developed within a perverted mind. Just the presence of these perverts degrade the integrity of our forum.

The first thought that comes to mind when I see the MTO insignia every time I enter the forum is “justice.” Justice against the misconceptions, allegations and the disgraceful propaganda set against us.

What’s with the lenience, this isn’t a game of tennis.

What I find most disappointing, is the positive actions of our members through their threads inundated due to negative posts created out of spite. Which in the ends subtracts and perverts the direction of the thread away from concluding in a manner, which was intended to be of benefit to our knowledge and understanding.

These are wild goose chases deliberately created to distract us from moving forward.

[Poligiros]

I think the Greek members of this forum will be particularly interested in my following observation regarding Greek-Macedonian relations, particularly in Greece today. I’d love to hear your comments on this as I really do believe it is the case.

I was holidaying in Macedonia during 2005 and I spent about 2 weeks visiting relatives in Gevgelija, in the far south-east of the republic. Most of my family is from Bitola but I have cousins in Gevgelija (through marriage) and a pleasant consequence of this is that I got my first real opportunity to visit Salonika (besides using it as a transit point to get to RoM) which is less than an hour’s drive away from this tiny border town.

Whenever they need something which they can’t find in Gevgelija, most of its inhabitants simply pop over the border to Salonika to find what they need. On this occasion, my cousin needed some parts for his car so he took me along for the ride. He has a basic command of Greek (not unusual in Gevgelija) and could get by if he had to use it.

However, with a smirk on his face, he told me that he refuses to speak Greek whenever he has dealings with the Salonika businessmen and always speaks to them in Macedonian. They all understand it he told me but the Grkomani refuse to answer back in Macedonian. And, as I witnessed for myself, to my absolute surprise, they did indeed understand everything he said to them. No pleasantries were ever exchanged. It was purely business and most refused to answer him back but, ironically, there was never any miscommunication and they always brought out the requested part.

From memory, we went to about 3-4 automotive/spare parts shops, an office building (can’t remember exactly what the purpose for that one was) and a Gyros food stall…BTW, best lamb gyros I’ve ever had, which was washed down with a Heineken while overlooking the bay of Salonika. There was the occasional “Nema” & “Nemame” but most served us without saying a word, careful (or reluctant) to answer us back in Macedonian.

I was stunned and asked my cousin if it was hit and miss whether people understood what he was saying or not and he replied that in fact he’s had a 100% strike rate and that everyone understood him in Salonika, even if most refused to answer him back. Even now, 10 years later, I still find this hard to believe. I keep reasoning to myself that perhaps, being shrewd businessmen, Greeks were becoming more pragmatic and learning some basic Macedonian to better deal with their customers from across the border that often frequent their businesses. Adopting a more sensible approach in dealing with the Skopjans makes good business sense I suppose.

So, what I think is going on is that, officially there is a lot of posturing and pig-headedness where neither side wants to lose face by backing down on the Macedonian issue. Unofficially, if my day out in Salonika is anything to go by, people are cooperating and learning to deal with each other in a civil and respectful way. Politics takes a back seat in favour of good business practices.

I couldn’t tell you for certain what ethnicity the people that served us were. They could all well have been Macedonians. Maybe some were Macedonians and others were Greeks, with some understanding of Macedonian. Or, maybe they were all Greeks who happened to pick up some basic Macedonian along the way from their mixed villages back in Lerin, Voden or Kostur, I don’t know. What I do know is that I felt as home in Salonika that day as I do whenever I am in Bitola.

Interesting points Karposh. I will answer but will only visit from time to time on this forum, as its obvious my contributions are not really wanted. I will not go around in circles anymore as I made it clear I wanted valid discussion, however I am somehow "negating Macedonian identity"

I have a friend who works in Tsimiski Thessaloniki in a travel business. Visiting the awesome clothing and fashion stores, we saw many groups of young, trendy people with many bags speaking a different language. He told me they are now probably some of the best customers as most of the affluent families from the Republic come to Thessaloniki on shopping sprees. Their children have big budgets and spend 1000 Euro in one weekend.

Regaring whether these people that converse in Macedonian, are Greek or Macedonian, I thought according to this forum, Aegean macedonia was full of "Christian Turks" predominately?

I believe Greeks are very good at picking up the tourist dialects for business and trade purposes. I remember an old Greek dude speaking fluent Chinese in Santorini, many people of my town speak fluent German to service the German tourists in Halkidiki. In addition, many Albanians come across the border to Konitsa and Epirus to get their commercial trucks serviced and once again its a combination of both sides using bits of both languages.

Yes overall, there are many benefits of combined and free trade between our nations, as can be experienced from good neighborly relations.

[Redsun]

Interesting points Karposh. I will answer but will only visit from time to time on this forum, as its obvious my contributions are not really wanted. I will not go around in circles anymore as I made it clear I wanted valid discussion, however I am somehow "negating Macedonian identity"

What a sob story, such a petty low deceitful attempt for some form of sympathy. Have you no shame?

This is nonsense, what contributions are you referring to?

Can you please provide a link to at least one single positive contribution you have made?

That's rubbish, if you were honest in your desire for a valid discussion. We wouldn't be discussing your negative behavior, correct?