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Old 04-18-2021, 06:21 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
Actually the Muslim minority of Western Thrace is not just recognized as "Muslim" by Greece, but by the Treaty of Lausanne.......It is NOT Turkish, it includes Turkish, Bulgarian (Pomak) and Roma people.
Putting aside the semantic stupidities, here are the facts that matter. The majority of the so-called "Muslim" minority in Greece is ethnically Turkish. Their native language is Turkish. They would openly identify as Turks in the political arena if Greeks didn't project their insecurities on them. You refer to the terminology used in the Treaty of Lausanne to deflect from a reality that all of you know to be true. The agreement for a population exchange which preceded that treaty was also based on religious identity. The Anatolian refugees, who were of diverse linguistic backgrounds, were allowed to transcend beyond the acknowledgement as Christians to become "ethnic" Greeks. Yet, the fascist politics that Greece engages in prevents a minority that predates the Anatolian refugees by centuries from exercising the same right. Given that Greeks like to harp on about how Turkey treats its Greek minority in a similar manner, it is surprising that Cavusoglu's counterpart didn't bring up the subject in retaliation. Perhaps he was too busy contemplating the Albanian roots of himself and his wife.
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......to Greece's displeasure, they have shown a certain anti-Greek and pro-Muslim unity on several occasions.........
That tends to happen when you treat people like rubbish.
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The Greek political establishment shows tolerance......
One cannot take a sentence seriously if it begins with that phrase.
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Old 04-18-2021, 07:42 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by sydney View Post
Go walk the streets there and tell them that.
What? Tell Pomaks they're not Turks? I mean I 1/4th come from Komotini and I'll be there for Easter.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Putting aside the semantic stupidities, here are the facts that matter. The majority of the so-called "Muslim" minority in Greece is ethnically Turkish. Their native language is Turkish. They would openly identify as Turks in the political arena if Greeks didn't project their insecurities on them. You refer to the terminology used in the Treaty of Lausanne to deflect from a reality that all of you know to be true.
First of all, the Treaty of Lausanne is very important for Greece and Turkey and even if you find it stupid, it is something set in stone. If it stops to exist many things would change, e.g., these people would not receive Turkish education (unless probably though private schools), their divorces would not be settled through Sharia (!), they would not have beneficial entry in University and so on. The Treaty of Lausanne is not a unilateral Law but a Greek-Turkish deal, so I’m not sure why Turkey wanted it like this in the 1920s. Again, this is not a “so called Muslim” minority, it is a really Muslim one. Most of them may be Turks, but not all of them. So, it is certain their official status cannot change.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The agreement for a population exchange which preceded that treaty was also based on religious identity. The Anatolian refugees, who were of diverse linguistic backgrounds, were allowed to transcend beyond the acknowledgement as Christians to become "ethnic" Greeks.
What on earth does that mean? The exchanged populations in Greece and Turkey are normal Greek or Turkish citizens and there is no special treatment about them.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Yet, the fascist politics that Greece engages in prevents a minority that predates the Anatolian refugees by centuries from exercising the same right.
Actually, individual or groups can self-define as they want, but the Muslim minority cannot be officially renamed. Actually, nothing can change about it, unless there’s a new Treaty.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Given that Greeks like to harp on about how Turkey treats its Greek minority in a similar manner, it is surprising that Cavusoglu's counterpart didn't bring up the subject in retaliation.
Why? How do they treat them?

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Perhaps he was too busy contemplating the Albanian roots of himself and his wife.
LOL, where do you find this shit? I live in Greece and had never heard who his wife is. I google her and cannot find anything about her ancestry, only that she was a young, divorced architect. Is she Albanian, or what?
As for Dendias he doesn’t have “Albanian roots”, his father was a Greek from Himara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
That tends to happen when you treat people like rubbish.
That is a difficult issue, how to treat populations that are both inferior and unwanted. The Treaty of Lausanne was based on mutuality, with two equally strong communities (130,000 Muslims in Western Thrace, 270,000 Greeks in Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos) Turkey exterminated the Greek community, less than 1-2% has survived, some say they’re more. Similarly, I find various numbers about the Muslims of Western Thrace because some count only Turks, others count Muslims or Turks outside Xanthi and Rodopi. A correct number could be around 70,000, but you may find 90,000 or 120,000 in various sources.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
One cannot take a sentence seriously if it begins with that phrase.
I don’t see why. It’s important that both sides are dishonest and compromising. The one year they both protest, the next they cooperate and all over again. I wouldn’t do that.



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Old 04-18-2021, 10:38 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
Actually, individual or groups can self-define as they want, but the Muslim minority cannot be officially renamed. Actually, nothing can change about it, unless there’s a new Treaty.
=
Tell that to Macedonians who are denied self-identification under Greek law



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That is a difficult issue, how to treat populations that are both inferior and unwanted.
=
WHAT?!
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Old 04-20-2021, 06:44 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis
First of all, the Treaty of Lausanne is very important for Greece and Turkey and even if you find it stupid, it is something set in stone. If it stops to exist many things would change, e.g., these people would not receive Turkish education (unless probably though private schools), their divorces would not be settled through Sharia (!), they would not have beneficial entry in University and so on. The Treaty of Lausanne is not a unilateral Law but a Greek-Turkish deal, so I’m not sure why Turkey wanted it like this in the 1920s. Again, this is not a “so called Muslim” minority, it is a really Muslim one. Most of them may be Turks, but not all of them. So, it is certain their official status cannot change.
I don't find the treaty stupid given the context and period of time in which it was written. I find it stupid that some feel the need for the same terminology to be used in perpetuity because they have an inferiority complex. Greece could easily acknowledge what it tacitly concedes in the treaty itself. Treaties have often been amended so spare me the bit about it being set in stone. Your argument implies that it is in the interest of the Turks in Greece to have their ethnic identity denied because without the treaty they would lose certain privileges. Is that really their sentiment? The Turkish minorities in other European countries such as Macedonia or Germany seem to do just fine under secular law. Ditto for the Turks in Turkey. Perhaps it is in the interest of Greece to keep the status quo so it can continue pretending that its population is 98% (or whatever imaginary number they're running with these days) "Greek" rather than opening up the inevitable can of worms that would follow the recognition of ethnic groups in the country. God forbid some of the money which you siphon from EU coffers goes towards the education of ethnic minorities in their native languages.
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What on earth does that mean? The exchanged populations in Greece and Turkey are normal Greek or Turkish citizens and there is no special treatment about them.
No need to feign ignorance, you know exactly what I meant. In the 1920's, the mixed bag of Anatolian refugees were considered Christians when they arrived, now they're all Greeks. The Muslims in Greece are still held to the standards of the 1920's and are considered as simply Muslim today, even though most of them are ethnically Turkish. Given that Greece doesn't officially acknowledge any other minority aside from the Muslims, the only way this predicament makes sense is if the term Greek in Greece is synonymous with the term Christian. Such a quasi-theocratic approach would mean all of the Christians in Greece are Greeks, irrespective of their ethnic backgrounds. If that is the rationale that is used, then I will keep it in mind the next time I see a descendant of Anatolian Armenians or Roma peoples from Greece standing next to a statue of Plato and claiming to be a Hellene.
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Actually, individual or groups can self-define as they want......
It's not just about how they self-identify, it is about acknowledgement from the state, you know, what most normal countries do.
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Why? How do they treat them?
Are you suggesting Greeks don't whine about how their supposed kinsmen are treated in Turkey?
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That is a difficult issue, how to treat populations that are both inferior and unwanted.
It's really not that difficult, just don't treat your minorities like rubbish. Take the above Hitleresque quote as a starting point. It is an indication of how embedded such xenophobic tendencies are in your people, even those who descend from Anatolian refugees such as yourself. Although they do say that the zeal of recent converts is more fervent. In any case, humour the readers by explaining how exactly Turks are inferior to Greeks?
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The Treaty of Lausanne was based on mutuality, with two equally strong communities (130,000 Muslims in Western Thrace, 270,000 Greeks in Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos) Turkey exterminated the Greek community, less than 1-2% has survived, some say they’re more.
Don't be hyperbolic about such a serious accusation. Turkey didn't exterminate 265,000 Greeks in Istanbul, Gokceada and Bozcaada. The decline in population is mostly due to emigration. Emigration was mostly due to ethnic tensions. Neither country is without blemish where it concerns the treatment of ethnic minorities.
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I don’t see why.
The phrase "Greek political establishment" doesn't naturally pair with the word "tolerance" given that Greece has no tolerance for its ethnic minorities when it comes to official recognition. That's why such a sentence can't be taken seriously.
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LOL, where do you find this shit? I live in Greece and had never heard who his wife is. I google her and cannot find anything about her ancestry, only that she was a young, divorced architect. Is she Albanian, or what? As for Dendias he doesn’t have “Albanian roots”, his father was a Greek from Himara.
I was (only) half-joking. I did a quick search and found some questioning both his and her background by suggesting a possible Albanian connection. Then I quickly came to the realisation that the ancestral roots of Dendias and Lala were beneath my shoes in terms of priorities in life. So I resumed watching TV. I leave the quest to you.
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I don't find the treaty stupid given the context and period of time in which it was written. I find it stupid that some feel the need for the same terminology to be used in perpetuity because they have an inferiority complex. Greece could easily acknowledge what it tacitly concedes in the treaty itself. Treaties have often been amended so spare me the bit about it being set in stone. Your argument implies that it is in the interest of the Turks in Greece to have their ethnic identity denied because without the treaty they would lose certain privileges. Is that really their sentiment? The Turkish minorities in other European countries such as Macedonia or Germany seem to do just fine under secular law. Ditto for the Turks in Turkey. Perhaps it is in the interest of Greece to keep the status quo so it can continue pretending that its population is 98% (or whatever imaginary number they're running with these days) "Greek" rather than opening up the inevitable can of worms that would follow the recognition of ethnic groups in the country. God forbid some of the money which you siphon from EU coffers goes towards the education of ethnic minorities in their native languages.
This has been discussed in many occasions. Greece does not provide ethnicity certificates to its’ citizens. Actually, no country does.
The ethnic identity of Turks is not denied, it just doesn’t officially apply to non-Turks. Thus, the minority is called Muslim.
Yes, realistically the change or abolishment of the Treaty of Lausanne is impossible. Probably, it would need a major Greek-Turkish War and a change in borders. Even so, it wouldn’t change to the direction you imply.
Yes, secularism or internationally admitted human/women rights violate the Treaty of Lausanne, but it’s no so hopeless. People CAN self-improve if they want to. For instance, polygamy is allowed but it is not practiced so much.
The Muslims of Western Thrace are not of Greek ethnicity.
I believe there are some weekend lessons for foreigners (e.g., Albanians) but I don’t know if this has to do with European Union projects.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
No need to feign ignorance, you know exactly what I meant. In the 1920's, the mixed bag of Anatolian refugees were considered Christians when they arrived, now they're all Greeks. The Muslims in Greece are still held to the standards of the 1920's and are considered as simply Muslim today, even though most of them are ethnically Turkish. Given that Greece doesn't officially acknowledge any other minority aside from the Muslims, the only way this predicament makes sense is if the term Greek in Greece is synonymous with the term Christian. Such a quasi-theocratic approach would mean all of the Christians in Greece are Greeks, irrespective of their ethnic backgrounds. If that is the rationale that is used, then I will keep it in mind the next time I see a descendant of Anatolian Armenians or Roma peoples from Greece standing next to a statue of Plato and claiming to be a Hellene.
I can’t follow your logic. Greek is not a synonym of Christian. Muslim is not a synonym of Turk. The Muslims of Western Thrace are (sort of) under the protection of Turkey, they receive Turkish education, they are not Turkish citizens and they’re not ethnically-Turks.
Armenians are not Greeks. Anatolians who were speaking Turkish or Greek-Turkish dialects are indeed considered Greek. They believe the language was enforced to them and that they’re not related to Turks. Turks believe they were Christianized Turks of very early pro-Ottoman times.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
It's not just about how they self-identify, it is about acknowledgement from the state, you know, what most normal countries do.
I’ve read that some gypsies and Pomaks identify as Turks as this is considered an upgrade fro them. From a Greek or legal/practical point of view that doesn’t change anything.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Are you suggesting Greeks don't whine about how their supposed kinsmen are treated in Turkey?
As far as I know Greeks of Turkey have very high economic and social standards, they are very few now and if they’re not… decapitated or their whole property stolen from them, they’re fine.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
It's really not that difficult, just don't treat your minorities like rubbish. Take the above Hitleresque quote as a starting point. It is an indication of how embedded such xenophobic tendencies are in your people, even those who descend from Anatolian refugees such as yourself. Although they do say that the zeal of recent converts is more fervent. In any case, humour the readers by explaining how exactly Turks are inferior to Greeks?
Any group A or B (national, ethnic, social, religious, local or gender-based) has a certain quality. Sometimes the qualities are very visible. Since all of you have a certain familiarity to the Balkans, if I told you the worst group among these three are the gypsies, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be surprised or ask for more explanations.
I have driven through most of the Muslim villages and it often feels you’re in a different continent or a different century (and I don’t mean the 20th century). Greeks and Turks, wherever they co-exist (Thrace, Cyprus) or as countries have also striking differences in quality, so you don’t really have to search in economical, social or development indices, but there are dozens of them out there.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Don't be hyperbolic about such a serious accusation. Turkey didn't exterminate 265,000 Greeks in Istanbul, Gokceada and Bozcaada. The decline in population is mostly due to emigration. Emigration was mostly due to ethnic tensions. Neither country is without blemish where it concerns the treatment of ethnic minorities.
Some Greeks still remain (only 2%), so Turkey fully eradicated the Greek community and I don’t think they’re interested in total annihilation. They probably focus on the Patriarch now and on whether he will be the last one.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The phrase "Greek political establishment" doesn't naturally pair with the word "tolerance" given that Greece has no tolerance for its ethnic minorities when it comes to official recognition. That's why such a sentence can't be taken seriously.
Nope, it actually IS tolerance and inclusiveness as the protesting and Turkey-controlled Muslims we are talking about are even elected with New Democracy! This is a bizarre yet old practice we’re used to in Greece and involves impressive double talk by both the Greek parties and the Muslim activists.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I was (only) half-joking. I did a quick search and found some questioning both his and her background by suggesting a possible Albanian connection. Then I quickly came to the realisation that the ancestral roots of Dendias and Lala were beneath my shoes in terms of priorities in life. So I resumed watching TV. I leave the quest to you.
Well, do you have a link?
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Old 04-25-2021, 08:12 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis
Greece does not provide ethnicity certificates to its’ citizens. Actually, no country does. The ethnic identity of Turks is not denied.....
The average citizen of Greece doesn't (can't) deny the existence of Turks in the country because they are a reality. Officially, however, Greece does deny their ethnic identity. Unlike most normal countries, Greece refuses to conduct a population census that includes questions on ethnicity and language. You feel the ambiguity created by such evasiveness entitles you to engage in verbal gymnastics. People who aren't ignorant of Greece's demographic history view this practice as inherent fraudulence stemming from a generational insecurity that has become part of your culture.
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Yes, realistically the change or abolishment of the Treaty of Lausanne is impossible. Probably, it would need a major Greek-Turkish War and a change in borders.
Where were the border changes and Turkish-Greek war of 2018 when new legislation effectively abrogated sections of the treaty?
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Quote:
https://en.protothema.gr/echr-condem...law-in-thrace/

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) issued a verdict condemning Greece over the obligatory application of the Islamic religious law (Sharia), stating it was illegal to force Greek Muslim citizens in Thrace to follow the religious law......judges in their ruling pointed out that Greece was the only country in Europe that implemented a mandatory Islamic law to certain of its citizens against their wishes.
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https://www.euractiv.com/section/lan...slim-minority/

The Greek parliament made the practice of Islamic sharia law in family disputes optional for the country’s Muslim minority, changing a century-old legacy......The 1920 Treaty of Sevres and the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne stipulated that Islamic customs and Islamic religious law would apply to thousands of Muslims who suddenly became Greek citizens.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-of-sharia-law

“There is no doubt this is an important step and a positive one that will open the way to further freedom for our community,” MP Mustafa Mustafa told the Guardian. “But I would have liked it to be fully abolished. No other EU country has sharia.”……The education and religious affairs minister, Constantine Gavroglou, praised its passage as “not just a technical adjustment [but] a very important day for parliament. Sharia, he said, had stemmed “from policies that were hostile toward the minority and sought to create second-class citizens”.
A supposedly Christian country forcing Sharia law on its reluctant Muslim citizens. Question - how sick are you?
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis
I have driven through most of the Muslim villages and it often feels you’re in a different continent or a different century (and I don’t mean the 20th century).
Almost like a medieval Hellenic Caliphate, right? Yeah, I can see why you'd have that perception.
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I can’t follow your logic. Greek is not a synonym of Christian.
The only officially acknowledged minority in Greece is the so-called Muslim minority, which means most of those that remain and have a Christian heritage, are treated as Greeks. Given the various ethno-linguistic identities among the latter, it stands to reason that the term Greek is synonymous with Christian, at least in that regard. If not, what exactly does being a "Greek" mean in the population statistics of the country?
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Any group A or B (national, ethnic, social, religious, local or gender-based) has a certain quality. Sometimes the qualities are very visible.
Even if there is any truth to the rest of that diatribe, it doesn't justify your all-embracing prejudices or pathetic treatment of other peoples.
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Greeks and Turks, wherever they co-exist (Thrace, Cyprus) or as countries have also striking differences in quality, so you don’t really have to search in economical, social or development indices, but there are dozens of them out there.
You literally impose backwardness in Thrace and force the international community to treat Northern Cyprus as a pariah, then jump to compare how superior you are. Genius. Take away the decades of grooming and leniency by your Germanic sugar-daddies and nothing separates you from the rest of the Balkan peoples.
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Nope, it actually IS tolerance and inclusiveness as the protesting and Turkey-controlled Muslims we are talking about are even elected with New Democracy!
I was noting the irony in your choice of words. Not surprising that it went way over your head.
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Well, do you have a link?
Perhaps you missed the "I could not care less" undertone in my previous reply.
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Old 04-25-2021, 03:02 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The average citizen of Greece doesn't (can't) deny the existence of Turks in the country because they are a reality. Officially, however, Greece does deny their ethnic identity. Unlike most normal countries, Greece refuses to conduct a population census that includes questions on ethnicity and language. You feel the ambiguity created by such evasiveness entitles you to engage in verbal gymnastics. People who aren't ignorant of Greece's demographic history view this practice as inherent fraudulence stemming from a generational insecurity that has become part of your culture.
Actually, both Greece and the average Greek admit the existence of (ethnic) Turks in the country. Neither considers the Pomaks as Turks.

Countries of immigrants like USA or Australia conduct population censuses with questions about ethnicity and language. As far as I know, neither Greece nor any other country in European Union does that.


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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Where were the border changes and Turkish-Greek war of 2018 when new legislation effectively abrogated sections of the treaty?
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
A supposedly Christian country forcing Sharia law on its reluctant Muslim citizens. Question - how sick are you?
None of this applies. According to the link, a Muslim couple would go to the Mufti (Sharia) for family, inheritance problems by default OR to the civil court if all parts agree. Now, this reverses as follows. The couple would go to the civil court by default or to the Mufti (Sharia) if all parts agree. Note: All of these, if I understand correctly, do not apply to Muslim couples in general, but to couples that have a religious wedding, not a civil one.

From, my point of view it seems like a small step to the right direction, but I’m not a Muslim. The critical parts are of course missing from the articles, i.e., the opinion of Muslims, or the opinion of Turkey. Gavroglou and Mustapha (mentioned in the link) are the Minister and the Muslim Member of the Parliament of Tsipras party back in 2017, so they have a secular point of view.

The case mentioned in the links is also an interesting one. A Muslim man with no-children died. He DID make a will leaving everything to his widow (he seems to be quite wealthy). But according to Sharia ¾ of his property should go to his two sisters (because I guess, civil wills do not matter in Sharia and wives matter less). It is also explained that according to Sharia a will is a different thing. To make things more complicated part of his disputed property is in Turkey, not in Greece.

The fist Greek Court said to the sisters “Fuck you, the guy made a civil will”. Sounds fine to me.

The sisters appealed. The second Greek court basically agreed with the fist.

The sisters went to the Higher Court of Cassation. That Court said the sisters are right, it’s up for the Mufti to decide. It also said the disputed property is mulkia (WTF?), it was acquired during Ottoman times under Islamic Law and it should be judged under Islamic Law. It annulled the previous decision and sent back the case to the previous court.

The Fourth Court said, yes the previous decisions were wrong, yeah right it’s a mulkia, fuck it, it goes under Sharia Law.

Other funny sides of the story: the widow says “my husband was not a practicing Muslim” (argument rejected).

Part of the dispute continues in Turkey about the Turkish property.
This is just in the middle of the story; I just had no patience to read further. I think in the end the European Court justified the sisters, and the Greek courts, but also forced Greece to pay a small compensation to the widow for her righteous legal fight (?), I’m not sure I understood what happened.

The widow played the last legal card of discrimination, i.e., she claimed that if she were Christian or a man, she would have taken the property, so she was discriminated because she was a Muslim and a woman. The European Court said that the Treaties DO refer to Muslim communities and were made in order to protect Muslims and respect Muslim laws.

There is also a European touch, referring to similar problems with increasing Mufti’s jurisdiction in other European countries.


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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Almost like a medieval Hellenic Caliphate, right? Yeah, I can see why you'd have that perception.
I don’t know what that means.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The only officially acknowledged minority in Greece is the so-called Muslim minority, which means most of those that remain and have a Christian heritage, are treated as Greeks. Given the various ethno-linguistic identities among the latter, it stands to reason that the term Greek is synonymous with Christian, at least in that regard. If not, what exactly does being a "Greek" mean in the population statistics of the country?
Well, no. Some official statistics count/present foreigners from a legal point of view, so second generation immigrants may appear as Greeks now. Sometimes, foreigners are presented as people born outside Greece, so Greeks who came from Germany or Albania are presented as foreigners.

The term ethnic-Greek has a very specific legal substance in Greece, not the one you imply or expect. It’s certainly not about characterizing Vlachs or Arvanites who are indeed not ethnically Greek.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Even if there is any truth to the rest of that diatribe, it doesn't justify your all-embracing prejudices or pathetic treatment of other peoples.
It seems one cannot impose or reverse backwardness. If there was a magic recipe everyone would follow it. Most modern countries apply the same (modern) rules Greece does. There are benefits and special laws for backward and primitive communities, as imposing the mainstream law is lately presented as oppression to a “different” group that “we don’t understand”.

These groups (cultural, racial, ethnic or religious) are relatively backward in every country you will find them, so it can’t be Greece’s fault.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
You literally impose backwardness in Thrace and force the international community to treat Northern Cyprus as a pariah, then jump to compare how superior you are. Genius. Take away the decades of grooming and leniency by your Germanic sugar-daddies and nothing separates you from the rest of the Balkan peoples.
Northern Cyprus or Turkish Cyprus is a false-state that is (rightfully) not recognized by anyone in the world, just like Artsakh, Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea. It’s not something Greece or Turkey can impose or change. Invading a foreign country, kicking its’ people out of their houses and bringing settlers is generally not accepted. The last part is actually considered a war crime that is not forgiven or forgotten.

I’m not sure what unifies or separates Balkan countries. I know we all have Ottoman past. North Greece was liberated about 80-90 years after South Greece, I don’t think we have a cultural or economic gap between us. On the other hand, Muslim-majority regions, or Muslim-majority countries in the Balkans (e.g., Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo) still present the lowest standards.

To be fair, right now, Turkey (which in the last decade is having its’ ups and downs) is wealthier than all non-EU Balkan countries and at some point, they had even reached and surpassed Bulgaria (which is usually at the far bottom of EU). Now, Turkey is again beneath Bulgaria, with a GDP per capita at about 82% of Bulgaria, but above Christian countries like Serbia or Montenegro.
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Old 04-25-2021, 06:58 PM   #88
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North Greece was liberated about 80-90 years after South Greece
Interesting and optimistic way of putting it. I'm sure it sounds much more believable in Greek though.
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Old 04-26-2021, 01:31 AM   #89
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Actually, both Greece and the average Greek admit the existence of (ethnic) Turks in the country.
Can you provide some examples where Greece officially acknowledges the existence of ethnic Turks in the country and what type of basic rights emanate from such acknowledgement? I would like to juxtapose that with documented instances of Greece forbidding the use of the word "Turk" in western Thrace.
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Neither considers the Pomaks as Turks.
Neither do I, so no need to keep bringing up the Pomaks.
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Countries of immigrants like USA or Australia conduct population censuses with questions about ethnicity and language. As far as I know, neither Greece nor any other country in European Union does that.
Don't hide behind the EU. Germany officially acknowledges a number of ethno-linguistic groups due to their centuries-old history in the country. Take the Sorbs as an example. They have no nation-state of their own yet are considered a national minority and their language has formal recognition in Germany. If Greece was in any way comparable it would afford the same courtesy to its Macedonian and Turkish minorities. Even Bulgaria and Albania, who share the same paranoia as Greece and skew their population statistics, grudgingly acknowledge the existence of other ethno-linguistic groups.
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None of this applies.
The ruling contravenes a section of the treaty and thus refutes your simplistic assertion that war would precipitate such an amendment. If you disagree with the characterisation of this event then take it up with the media outlets that presented this story and the ECHR who scolded your country for mimicking Saudi Arabia.
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The critical parts are of course missing from the articles, i.e., the opinion of Muslims, or the opinion of Turkey. Gavroglou and Mustapha (mentioned in the link) are the Minister and the Muslim Member of the Parliament of Tsipras party back in 2017, so they have a secular point of view.
Are you suggesting most of the Muslims in western Thrace would prefer to live under Sharia law as opposed to secular law like their brethren in Turkey? Or that Turkey are fine with secular law in their own country but would prefer for their brethren in western Thrace to remain under Sharia law? If the Turks and other Muslims in western Thrace disagree with MP Mustafa, where was the outcry and demonstration against the ruling?
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I don’t know what that means.
You're not that stupid. Connect the dots.
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Some official statistics count/present foreigners from a legal point of view, so second generation immigrants may appear as Greeks now.
In which official statistics do they appear as Greeks? Define the meaning of "Greeks" in such statistics.
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The term ethnic-Greek has a very specific legal substance in Greece, not the one you imply or expect. It’s certainly not about characterizing Vlachs or Arvanites who are indeed not ethnically Greek.
Define it. Provide examples of its use in legal documentation and how, within the same framework, such an individual is differentiated from a person that identifies as an ethnic Vlach.
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Invading a foreign country, kicking its’ people out of their houses and bringing settlers is generally not accepted. The last part is actually considered a war crime that is not forgiven or forgotten.
Greece invaded Macedonia, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, kicked out Macedonians and Turks and brought in settlers. One can argue about the legitimacy of Northern Cyprus, but Greece's annexation of southern Macedonia is the epitome of illegitimacy. The fact that you would deem rape, theft, property destruction and murder as an act of liberation is one reason why we, the Macedonians, have neither forgiven nor forgotten. Choose your next reply carefully, lest you insult the memory of my ancestors who had to endure such barbarism.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:28 PM   #90
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Can you provide some examples where Greece officially acknowledges the existence of ethnic Turks in the country and what type of basic rights emanate from such acknowledgement? I would like to juxtapose that with documented instances of Greece forbidding the use of the word "Turk" in western Thrace.
Greece calls them Turks or “Turkogenous” which means “of Turkish descent” and their language is called Turkish.

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Neither do I, so no need to keep bringing up the Pomaks.
Well, actually THAT is the issue, and about Romani (Gypsies) also.

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Don't hide behind the EU. Germany officially acknowledges a number of ethno-linguistic groups due to their centuries-old history in the country. Take the Sorbs as an example. They have no nation-state of their own yet are considered a national minority and their language has formal recognition in Germany. If Greece was in any way comparable it would afford the same courtesy to its Macedonian and Turkish minorities. Even Bulgaria and Albania, who share the same paranoia as Greece and skew their population statistics, grudgingly acknowledge the existence of other ethno-linguistic groups.
Greece generally doesn’t use (officially) the term minority, except for the Muslim minority of Western Thrace. This is also the only case with official education in different language. I’m not sure what you say about Germany or Bulgaria is correct.

I think Albania is bound by Treaties about its’ Greek minority, but there are some issues that have been discussed before in the forum.

Greece certainly does not recognize a Macedonian ethnicity or minority, disagreeing both on the name and essence. We usually speak of a Slavophone or Slav Macedonian community or group.


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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The ruling contravenes a section of the treaty and thus refutes your simplistic assertion that war would precipitate such an amendment. If you disagree with the characterisation of this event then take it up with the media outlets that presented this story and the ECHR who scolded your country for mimicking Saudi Arabia.
I think you’re wrong. What ruling are you talking about? I also read extended statements by European Court of Human Rights but not the part about Saudi Arabia. Actually, the statements I read were very moderate and respectful towards Sharia.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Are you suggesting most of the Muslims in western Thrace would prefer to live under Sharia law as opposed to secular law like their brethren in Turkey? Or that Turkey are fine with secular law in their own country but would prefer for their brethren in western Thrace to remain under Sharia law? If the Turks and other Muslims in western Thrace disagree with MP Mustafa, where was the outcry and demonstration against the ruling?
Yes, there’s a moderate disagreement by Turkey, the Muftis (of course) and by the most religious part of the minority. The percentages and opinions among the minority are totally unclear.

It’s fair to say that the minority is represented by its’ 2, 3 or 4 MPs. For instance, I have found previous statements by the Muslim MP of New Democracy proposing that Muslims should be able to choose between Civil Courts and Sharia IF ALL PARTS AGREE. The problem is that in a dispute the Civil Court usually benefits one side and Sharia the other side. Actually, the discussed law by Gavroglou is a bigger step towards secularism.

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In which official statistics do they appear as Greeks? Define the meaning of "Greeks" in such statistics.
There are efforts to estimate the numbers of legal or illegal immigrants and foreigners of all sorts. Some of the numbers and pies you can find out there are based on sources that simply refer to people born in different countries. I couldn’t find what I remembered but it was a funny one as it presented a sizeable Albanian community in Greece (around 7%) and also… a German one.

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Define it. Provide examples of its use in legal documentation and how, within the same framework, such an individual is differentiated from a person that identifies as an ethnic Vlach.
The only practical legal use I can think of is if an ethnic-Greek from abroad acquires Greek citizenship. The Greek term is “homogenous” which means “of our blood/genre”. In the old days this would not apply for Slavophones or Muslims of Thrace, actually there would be laws removing their citizenship if they had left Greece for many years without license (that suggested the country wanted to get rid of them).
Vlachs are usually patriotic. Those separatists of World War II were probably expelled or executed; I don’t remember.

In short, Vlachs define as Vlachs (and as Greeks). There are very few who would say, I’m not Greek, I’m Vlach, I’m only a Greek citizen. Such an activist that has no Greek citizenship (for some reason) and tries to get or regain one may probably be rejected.

In the past there were also other discriminations; Muslims were not eligible to become Army officers,


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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Greece invaded Macedonia, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, kicked out Macedonians and Turks and brought in settlers. One can argue about the legitimacy of Northern Cyprus, but Greece's annexation of southern Macedonia is the epitome of illegitimacy. The fact that you would deem rape, theft, property destruction and murder as an act of liberation is one reason why we, the Macedonians, have neither forgiven nor forgotten. Choose your next reply carefully, lest you insult the memory of my ancestors who had to endure such barbarism.
What on earth are you referring to?

There’s a generic (moral, historical) legitimacy that can be one-sided or judged by third-parties and there’s the strict legal part. If Cyprus had signed a Treaty with Turkey, which they wisely avoided doing beside the pressure, Turkish Cyprus (or whatever it was named) would be recognized by everyone today.
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