Discussion on languages and etymologies

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    Hi Risto, thanks for response.

    It seems like Macedonian has been derived from "iskam" or the other way around for other slavic languages.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Originally posted by Makedonce1 View Post
      I'm curious to know if any Macedonian words today were used back in Aleksandar Makedonski's time.
      Although it is poorly attested, there are some Indo-European cognates that can be established, but it requires a bit of research. Below are some simple examples:

      English - Anc. Mak - Mod. Mak - Mod. Greek

      gather - bere - bere - fero
      head - gavala - glava - kefali
      branch - garkan - granka - charax (in Attic)
      eyebrows - abroûwes - obrve (in Croatian) - frydia

      Even from the few words above, it can be determined that Macedonian sound changes are different to Greek sound changes. If one were to take a more broader look and include other related languages, then there would be more. It is difficult to ascertain how much words today came directly from Paleo-Balkan languages as opposed to another language or dialect that was closely related.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • slovenec zrinski
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 385

        Hi SoM. These ancient Macedonian words, where did u find them? Are those actually words that have been found and determined Macedonian?
        How can linguists see these words and not see the similarities to slavic (not sure if I dare to even use this very handy expression ) words?

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          Zrinski, yes the above 4 words are ancient Macedonian. The first word is attested in the placename Beroia and the personal name Berenika, and is cognate with English 'bear'. They share the common IE sound change from bh > b (just like in all Balto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages), whereas in Greek this sound changes from bh > ph > f. The next three words are recorded in Hesychius' lexicon during the 5th century AD. If you're interested I can provide snapshots from the lexicon with the relevant words.
          Originally posted by Zrinski
          How can linguists see these words and not see the similarities to slavic (not sure if I dare to even use this very handy expression ) words?
          To be honest, I don't think many of them have given the notion a fair chance, because such a perception is overshadowed by politics. Things will change.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            Zrinski, here are the snapshots from Hesychius' lexicon, in case you did want to see them:





            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Mygdon
              Junior Member
              • May 2009
              • 90

              i thought our "sakam" had its origin from the greek "sagapo".

              Comment

              • Voltron
                Banned
                • Jan 2011
                • 1362

                The f to b argument is not correct for a number of reasons.
                Today the closest language to Ancient Macedonian is Greek. Furthermore anybody that is interested can study Phrygian vs Greek and see the similarities yourself.

                Last edited by Voltron; 02-29-2012, 09:41 AM.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  Voltron i have seen ancient greek & compared it to ancient macedonian i think it's totally different.Some words are similar ie they helenised them & over time said they are greek.Then there are words that are not the same,they are exclusively macedonian.An example like the name filipos or alexander alexandros.You'd think they were greek but on closer examination they were macedonian the greeks over time helenised them.Also there was the koine language.But the greeks couldn't understand ancient macedonian in general it was babbel to them.Maybe a handful of greek words are similar from phonecian influence & greek influence of the time like all languages.So voltron stop trying to helenise ancient macedonian as it's completely different.You only got to compare the words with a difference of ous at the end.
                  The Macedonian king Alexander the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an order in his native tongue and the Greek commander Eumenes needed a translator to address the soldiers of the Macedonian phalanx. The Greek orators Thrasymachus of Chalcedon and Demosthenes of Athens called Macedonian kings like Archelaus and Philip II barbarians, which prima facie means that they did not speak Greek. Now this happens in polemical contexts and is certainly exaggerated, but the statements need to refer to some kind of linguistic reality.
                  Words that have a counterpart in Greek. For example, the Macedonian title Nikatôr ("victor") is obviously the equivalent of Greek Nikêtêr. Usually, the Macedonian words are voiced and lack aspiration whereas Greek words are voiceless and aspirated: for example, Greek aithêr is the equivalent of Macedonian adê ("sky").
                  Words that do not resemble a Greek word: sarissa ("lance"), abagna ("rose"), peliganes ("senate"). It is certain that these words are Indo-European.
                  t is also certain that the Macedonian language became increasingly hellenized. Evidence for the pronunciation of Macedonian in the second half of the fourth century can be found in the cuneiform texts from Babylon. If Macedonian was still unaspirated and voiced when Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire, the Babylonian scribes would have spelled the name of the king's brother, called Philippos in Greek sources, something like Bi-líp+ending. However, the first syllable is always Pi, which also represents a sound like /vi/. This suggests that the Macedonians had began to aspire their consonants and were losing voice. The name Berenike (the Macedonian equivalent of Greek Pherenike) may also have been pronounced according to the Greek fashion, because it is rendered in Latin as Veronica.
                  Finally, it must be stressed that, despite what modern politicians and some modern scholars argue, language says not much about ethnicity. (People can speak Frisian and have a Dutch passport, whereas people speaking Dutch can live in Belgium and Surinam and feel offended when they are called Dutch.) The identification of "one language, one nation, one state", is nineteenth-century and says nothing about Antiquity. Still, language is one of the factors that is used to classify people, just like religion and a shared past, so it is not altogether irrelevant either.
                  The ancient Macedonians regarded the ancient Greeks as neighbors, not as kinsmen. The Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners ("barbarians") whose native language was Macedonian, not Greek.
                  Last edited by George S.; 02-29-2012, 09:59 AM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                    The f to b argument is not correct for a number of reasons.
                    Lol, ok, humour me. What are these numerous reasons?
                    Today the closest language to Ancient Macedonian is Greek.
                    And you base that opinion on what, Greek loanwords in the ancient Macedonian language? Greek inscriptions in Macedonia like the "Pella Katadesmos" which don't even demonstrate Macedonian sound changes?
                    Furthermore anybody that is interested can study Phrygian vs Greek and see the similarities yourself.
                    The Phrygian language in Asia altered after a large number of them migrated to that region. Their original name (while still in Europe and neighbouring Macedonians) was Brygian, again sharing the same sound change as the rest of the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages. As for the relationship between Phrygian and Greek, see below:

                    English - Phrygian - Slovenian (instead of mod. Macedonian, just for fun)

                    God - Bago - Bog
                    Water - Vedi - Voda
                    City - Gordum - Grad (also Gorod in Russian)
                    Vegetables - Zelkia - Zelenjava (also Zelka for 'cabbage' in Macedonian)
                    Earth - Zemela - Zemlja

                    I am sure there are some Greek cognates too, but do those who make such comparisons also consider the above Phrygian words?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Voltron
                      Banned
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 1362

                      [QUOTE]
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Lol, ok, humour me. What are these numerous reasons?
                      One is the relationship between Phrygian (as you mentioned below) and Greek.

                      And you base that opinion on what, Greek loanwords in the ancient Macedonian language? Greek inscriptions in Macedonia like the "Pella Katadesmos" which don't even demonstrate Macedonian sound changes?
                      How do you know they are loanwords ? Yes the Pella Katadesmos is a good example. There has been nothing to date to suggest otherwise. You might have remembered the example I brought up with the Thracian ring. Why cant we find anything similar for Macedonians ? Can it just be because there isnt ? Surely in their vast empire they could of scrambeled a few letters to make it fit to their language. Yet there is nothing.


                      The Phrygian language in Asia altered after a large number of them migrated to that region. Their original name (while still in Europe and neighbouring Macedonians) was Brygian, again sharing the same sound change as the rest of the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages. As for the relationship between Phrygian and Greek, see below:
                      Yes, I am familiar with the their name change. There are too many similarities to simply brush it off with disregard.

                      I am sure there are some Greek cognates too, but do those who make such comparisons also consider the above Phrygian words?
                      All im saying is just take a look at it. Some of the examples are on the link. For water though its Akkalos.

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        Voltrn the greeks are very happy to talk about what happened 3000 years ago but don't want to talk about what happened 100 years ago.If the macedonians were the same people they would call themselves greek.But they weren't the same people their language & their identity is proof of who they are.I have seen greeks deny that there was a different language spoken by the macedonians.The greeks are assuming that all they spoke was greek & from that they must have been greek.How wrong is thatThe macedonians had a mother tounge which was different to greek.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • slovenec zrinski
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 385

                          Thank u very much for the scans SoM. Very interesting indeed!
                          And I can´t wait until some linguists gets their heads out of their.... and start taking a broader and unbiased look at this....but I fear i have to wait for along time...

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                            One is the relationship between Phrygian (as you mentioned below) and Greek.
                            You don't seem to get it, the Phrygian language began to exhibit the b > f sound change only after they moved to Asia. Macedonian continued to use the b despite having Greek neighbours to the south and the influence of the Greek language through trade and administration. So much for your one reason. What happened to the numerous reasons?
                            How do you know they are loanwords ? Yes the Pella Katadesmos is a good example.
                            I know some are loanwords because they don't exhibit typical Macedonian sound changes, just your like beloved 'Pella Katadesmos'. Furthermore, it would be naive to think that ancient Macedonians didn't adopt a number of Greek words given the influence and proximity. The same applies with modern Macedonian.
                            There has been nothing to date to suggest otherwise.
                            There is plenty to suggest otherwise, you just don't want to see it and would rather pretend that a Greek inscription is Macedonian just because it was found on Macedonian territory. Your reasoning is very elementary. You may as well claim both Illyria and Thrace while you're at it.
                            You might have remembered the example I brought up with the Thracian ring. Why cant we find anything similar for Macedonians ?
                            You can't find anything similar for Paeonians or Illyrians either, both of whom used Greek on their coins. Don't read too much into it, they aren't Greeks either. Even in the case of Thracian, there are only a few inscriptions. Literature wasn't a priority for most Paleo-Balkan peoples during antiquity. None of the above is proof that the native language of Macedonia was Greek.
                            Yes, I am familiar with the their name change. There are too many similarities to simply brush it off with disregard.
                            I am not brushing off similarities, just trying to make sense of them.
                            All im saying is just take a look at it. Some of the examples are on the link. For water though its Akkalos.
                            I have seen the examples, but they don't address the previous words I cited. As for one of the Phrygian words for water, you're correct, there is also Akala, and it is cognate with Thracian Achel and Lithuanian Akele - again, keeping it within the common Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic group of languages.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              Originally posted by slovenec zrinski View Post
                              Thank u very much for the scans SoM. Very interesting indeed!
                              And I can´t wait until some linguists gets their heads out of their.... and start taking a broader and unbiased look at this....but I fear i have to wait for along time...
                              No problem Zrinski, there are more words (mostly from Hesychius again) that are worthy of further inspection, such as:

                              Anc. Macedonian - Mod. Macedonian

                              karabos (sea creature) - korab (vessel)
                              kanadoi (jaws) - kandzhi (claws)
                              pez (walk) - pesh (walk)
                              gotan (pig) - goida (livestock)
                              grabion (oak) - grab (hornbeam - in Serbian/Croatian)

                              Most of the above also have cognates in Greek, some could have developed from a common IE root, others loaned from one to the other or from a third party. Below are some examples of how critical differences appear between Greek on the one hand and Paleo-Balkan/Balto-Slavic languages on the other. Individually, these examples may or may not result in significant differences. However, if they were all applied to Greek then it would be a markedly different language, nevermind the different suffixes and case endings that surely existed but were never recorded.

                              - Based on the sound change bh > b, and the existence of Illyrian 'bra' and Thracian 'brater' (both meaning 'brother'), it would be safe to assume that anc. Macedonian also had a similar word, which would obviously be closer to Old Macedonian (Old Church Slavonic) 'bratrŭ' than Greek 'phrater'. As there are other examples like the already mentioned anc. Macedonian 'ber' instead of Greek 'pher', further probable reconstructions of this nature could also be proposed.

                              - The sound change dh > d and d > d, in anc. Macedonian means that 'Makedonia' would have been pronounced with a hard 'd' just like in mod. Macedonian, and unlike mod. Greek. This sound change also applies to other words where the Greek equivalent uses a 'th', such as anc. Macedonian 'adē' for 'air' as opposed to Attic Greek 'aithēr'.

                              - Another sound change in anc. Macedonian was gh > g, which means 'branch' is 'garka' instead of Attic Greek 'charax', and 'intestines' is 'goda' instead of Homeric 'cholades', and 'head' is 'gavala' instead of Greek 'kefali'.

                              - Attic and mod. Greek have the feminine ending 'η' in some words, so the following would be pronounced as Phereniki, Saloniki, Katerini, Lysidiki, Kefali, etc. Some ancient Greek dialects also had the 'α' but so did the Paleo-Balkan languages, and Balto-Slavic languages still have them, so the same names would be pronounced as Berenika, Salonika, Katerina, Lysidika, Gavala, etc.

                              - Greek also has a tendency to more frequently drop the first initial in certain words that begin with an 's', whereas Balto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages appear to retain them more often (but not in all cases). Therefore, Greek has Helios instead of Selios for 'sun', whereas So(l)ntse in mod. Macedonian; Triaditsa instead of Striaditsa for 'Serdica', whereas Sreditsa or Sredets in mod. Macedonian; Elefteria instead of Selefteria for 'freedom', whereas Sloboda in mod. Macedonian; Meidos instead of Smeidos for 'laugh', whereas Smei in mod. Macedonian; Hals instead of Sals for 'salt', whereas Sal in Illyrian; Heks instead of Seks for 'six', whereas Ses in Illyrian; Hŭle instead of Sŭle for 'forest groove', whereas Sula in Thracian; Kársis instead of Skársis for ‘transverse', whereas Skarsas in Thracian, and so on.

                              As can be seen, the suggestion of a more than common connection between Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages (and the distinction of anc. Macedonian from Greek) is certainly not based on a weak foundation. The fact that few scholars have spent the time to explore the possibility makes it difficult to seek and find the truth, but not impossible.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670


                                Crepidoma is an architectural term related to ancient Greek buildings. The crepidoma is the platform of, usually, three levels upon which the superstructure of the building is erected. The levels typically decrease in size incrementally, forming a series of steps along all or some sides of the building. The crepidoma rests on the euthynteria (foundation), which is normally constructed of locally available stone for the sake of economy.
                                This would be pronounced as 'Krepidoma'. The mod. Macedonian 'krepi doma' means 'strengthen/support home', which has an obviously relevant meaning, but it could be coincidental. I looked into the origin of the word a little, but couldn't find an etymology for it. Does anybody know if it has one in Greek or any other language?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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