"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    #31
    18th Century Aromanian Writers: the Enlightement and the Awakening of National and Balkan Consciousness, Nistor Bardu --

    Or: how the bilingual, wealthy and educated Vlachs of Moskopole and Janina created Balkan literacy, created and formed modern Greek literacy, culture, and identity.



    In PDF format:


    Some notable names (among many others):

    Ioannis Chalkeus (Vlach from Moskopole)


    Theodore Kavallioti (Vlach from Moskopole)


    Eugenios Voulgaris (Bulgarian from Corfu)





    Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:47 PM.

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    • PetroV
      Banned
      • Feb 2013
      • 24

      #32
      Lots of similarities between Albanians and Vlachs ,its like they are the same people culturally but divided at one point linguistically.

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      • dekapentaugoustos
        Banned
        • Feb 2013
        • 21

        #33
        Given that Vlachs were basicaly NOWHERE in Peloponnese, either prior or after 1865, I just have to ask. What is the video-text of post#1?

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        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          #34
          Originally posted by dekapentaugoustos View Post
          Given that Vlachs were basicaly NOWHERE in Peloponnese, either prior or after 1865, I just have to ask. What is the video-text of post#1?

          Here are just two sources which logically invalidate your claim.

          1) Cousinery states clearly that he encountered many Vlachs in Argos, Peloponnese:

          The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel in Morea (Peloponnese) shortly after the War of Independence, 1821. He specifically makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains.

          Cousinery H.E.M., Voyage dans de la Macédoine, Book I. Paris, 1831.

          2) The London Quarterly Review, published in April 1895 and July 1895:
          "The Wallachians ... are numerous in the Peloponnesus."

          Note that these are only two sources.




          Ούτως εν Λακωνία οι Μανιάται διακρίνονται πάντοτε ευκρινώς από των μη Μανιατών, ους καλούση γενικώς Βλάχους και σφόδρα καταφρονουσιν' εν Κυνουρία οι Τζακώνες του Λεωνιδίου και των πέριξ χωριών ου μόνον κατά την γλώσσαν, αλλά και κατά συνείδησιν φιλετικιν διακρίνονται από των λοιπών της επαρχίας ταύτης κατοίκων, οίτινες εαυτούς καλούση Βλάχους εν κ υπό των μακράν οικούντων καλούνται ενίοτε εξ άγνοιας Τζακώνες.
          Last edited by Carlin; 09-21-2016, 09:19 AM.

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          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            #35
            Originally posted by PetroV View Post
            Lots of similarities between Albanians and Vlachs ,its like they are the same people culturally but divided at one point linguistically.
            Antiquarian Researches in Illyricum: Part I-IV, By Sir Arthur Evans.

            Pages 156-157:

            "Above this spot were some curious niches with remains of frescoes, but these of medieval Byzantine or Slavonic date, cut in the face of the cliff. The present population is Albanian, belonging to three "Fises" - "Plahach," "Sopa," and "Kilment" ("Clementi," as pronounced by my guide). From what I learned from him as to the local dialect, Roman or Rouman influence on the language must be here very marked, and I was much struck with his remark: "Albanian, Italian, and Vlach are all the same." On the opposite side of the Golema is a village with the purely Rouman name, Pratosielce=Willow-mead, and Konchul on the other side of the Morava has an equally Rouman sound."

            PS: Sir Arthur Evans' guide was an Albanian by the name Mustafa.

            Here is more information about Mustafa, from Evans in the pg. 156 footnotes:

            "Mustafa had picked up a little Italian from some workmen engaged on the new Serbian line. Amongst words in the local dialect which struck him as like Italian he instanced Szavle=Sand, [Cf. Ital. Sabbia, Rouman, Sablu], Plop or Plep=poplar [Ital. pioppo, Macedo-Rouman plop], Sielce=willow [Italian Salice, Macedo-Rouman Salice or Salce], Supra=above [It. Sopra, Rouman Supra, ordinary Albanian Siper], Ca'olli also Cavolli, horse [It. Cavallo, Rouman Callu, ordinary Albanian Colli or Calli], etc."
            Last edited by Carlin; 03-23-2013, 10:35 PM.

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            • dekapentaugoustos
              Banned
              • Feb 2013
              • 21

              #36
              Originally posted by Carlin View Post
              PS: Can you please translate the following?

              Ούτως εν Λακωνία οι Μανιάται διακρίνονται πάντοτε ευκρινώς από των μη Μανιατών, ους καλούση γενικώς Βλάχους και σφόδρα καταφρονουσιν' εν Κυνουρία οι Τζακώνες του Λεωνιδίου και των πέριξ χωριών ου μόνον κατά την γλώσσαν, αλλά και κατά συνείδησιν φιλετικιν διακρίνονται από των λοιπών της επαρχίας ταύτης κατοίκων, οίτινες εαυτούς καλούση Βλάχους εν κ υπό των μακράν οικούντων καλούνται ενίοτε εξ άγνοιας Τζακώνες.
              This passage is from the video-text of post#1. Here's the translation. (Now you owe to tell me the source, or simply say there's no source).

              So in Laconia, Maniots are always clearly distinguished from non-Maniots, whom they generally call Vlachs and vehemently disdain.

              In Cynuria, the Tsakonians of Leonidio and the surrounding villages, not only in language but also in tribal conscience, are distinguished from the other inhabitants of the province, who call themselves Vlachs, even though people from outside sometimes call them Tsakonians out of ignorance.
              Last edited by dekapentaugoustos; 03-24-2013, 04:35 AM.

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              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                #37
                Originally posted by dekapentaugoustos View Post
                This passage is from the video-text of post#1. Here's the translation. (Now you owe to tell me the source, or simply say there's no source).

                So in Laconia, Maniots are always clearly distinguished from non-Maniots, whom they generally call Vlachs and vehemently disdain.

                In Cynuria, the Tsakonians of Leonidio and the surrounding villages, not only in language but also in tribal conscience, are distinguished from the other inhabitants of the province, who call themselves Vlachs, even though people from outside sometimes call them Tsakonians out of ignorance.
                Thank you.

                I did not upload the video, so I can't comment on the source. I would like to find out the source myself, if there is one in this case. It seems to be a rather detailed document from 1915, so if it is fraudulent it's an elaborate hoax.


                "The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." -- The present state of the Morea called Peloponnesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686.
                Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:48 PM.

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                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #38

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                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    #39


                    1) Here are some additional quotes and findings which indicate that Maniotes, Tzakonians (but also Melingi) were all Vlachs.

                    Although what follows is mostly in French I will summarize the most relevant points. (Note that mountain Taygetos and Cape Tainaron are considered as traditional lands of Maniotes - or Mani.)

                    - According to testimonies from both Chalcondyle and Meletius the Slavs of mountain Taygetos and Cape Tainaron in Peloponnese, were called Vlachs and belonged to the same race (referred to as Roman), as the people living in Dacia, Pindus area and Great Wallachia-Thessaly. (They originally migrated from Dacia.) Primary original quotes are provided below.
                    - Melingi are a branch/part of Maniotes. A Maniote from the 18th century, Niphakis, "wants" Melingi to be Maniotes.
                    - According to a Tzakonian merchant (trader), M. Kolossucas, there still existed a tradition among his people that Tzakonians once occupied Macedonia, and were exiled from there to Laconia by the emperors.
                    - There existed "ethnological" chaos among various writers during the Middle Ages. Slavs were called Vlachs, among other things. Many made such mistakes (out of sheer ignorance), including the Venetians.














                    2) Peloponnesiaca: A Supplement to Travels in the Moréa, By William Martin Leake.

                    Page 336. Laconians = Tzakonians = Maniates (= Vlachs.)

                    ".. for it is evident from the anonymous Metrical Chronicle of the Wars of the Franks in the Morea in the 13th century, that Tzakonia had then a much wider signification. Even as late as the beginning of the 18th century we find the Venetians applying the name Zaccunia to all the ancient Laconia, including Mani. There remains, therefore, the strongest reason to believe that the Lakones or Tzakones mentioned by Pachymer and Gregoras consisted chiefly of Maniates."

                    3) "Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?", By Johann Benos.

                    Were the Peloponnesian Melingi Vlachs?

                    Many authors believe that the Peloponnesian Melingi were either of Slav or of unknown origin. However, there is evidence in the sources that they probably were Vlachs from Thessaly.



                    Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:49 PM.

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      #40
                      I have posted the following in another thread, but here it is one more time - as found in this book:

                      Source: Mnemeia Hellenikes historias: Statuta et capitula --> Page "PREFACE LXXI".

                      French: "Dans la petition des Monembasiotes (1527), ces habitants des environs de Monembasie portent le nom Vulachi (Βλάχοι). Voir p. 231.

                      English: "In the petition of Monembasiotes (1527), the nearby residents of Monemvasia are named Vlachs (Βλάχοι). See p. 231."
                      Last edited by Carlin; 03-21-2016, 03:57 PM.

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                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        #41
                        Source: Les Tzacones, by Stam. C. Caratzas. Page 126:

                        French: "Deux indications militent pour l'existence d'un rapport entre les Tzacones et les Valaques dans la poesie populaire."

                        English: "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."
                        Last edited by Carlin; 04-27-2017, 06:36 AM.

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          #42
                          Source: The Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1050: The Early Middle Ages, By Florin Curta.

                          1) The inhabitants of Maina or Mani = Latin Romans (or Latin-speaking Romans).
                          2) Graikoi = Slavs (Slavic-speakers, and likely other peoples with a "much more recent history in Peloponnesos").

                          Pages 291 & 292 Summary:

                          - In the mid-tenth century 'Hellenes' still had a strongly non-ethnic meaning ('Hellenes'-as-pagans), while Helladikoi referred strictly to the troops of the theme of Hellas, not Peloponnesos (Koder 2003: 306; Kaldellis 2007: 117 and 184-5).

                          - According to the Emperor Constantine, those living in Peloponnesos during his lifetime used the term 'Hellenes' to refer not to themselves, but to the inhabitants of the city of Maina, 'because in the very ancient times they were idolaters and worshippers of images after the fashion of ancient Hellenes' (On the Administration of the Empire 50). There was, however, an ethnic difference between Graikoi and the inhabitants of Maina. The latter are said to be 'not of the race (genea) of the aforesaid Slavs, but of the ancient Romans (Rhomaioi).' That Emperor Constantine has in mind Latin Romans, and not just the population of Greece in Antiquity, follows from the explanation he gives elsewhere for the fact that in ancient times the whole of Italy was in the possession of the Romans: 'I mean, when Rome was the imperial capital' (On the Administration of the Empire 27).

                          - Whether or not the tenth-century inhabitants of Mani were truly of Roman descent is irrelevant at this point. What matters is that they appeared to be so to the Emperor in Constantinople, and as a consequence they needed to be distinguished from the Graikoi on the outskirts of Patras. The latter may have referred to people who, unlike the 'Hellenes' of Mani, had a much more recent history in Peloponnesos.

                          - A Latin name with pejorative connotations, Graikoi had been used in the sixth century to insult soldiers in the Roman army which had invaded the Vandal and the Ostrogothic kingdoms (Prokopios of Kaisareia..).
                          Last edited by Carlin; 03-22-2016, 08:52 AM.

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                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            #43
                            So far we know of numerous Vlachs, Albanians, and Mardaites in Tzakonia itself. [Are Mardaites simply Albanians, or a separate people? They were likely Albanians.]

                            In addition, there are also Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs (the Ezerites), Armenians, and many others in Lakonia as well (that is, the wider region which includes and encompasses Tzakonia (?)).

                            Let's investigate and take a look at the unexplored and little known topic of Vlach words in the Tzakonian language. (How is this possible?!)

                            Below, I am simply providing a modern Greek source (which I don't fully endorse). The value is quite simply that it gives us linguistic evidence, and words/lexicon, which is quite intriguing (and unknown to most people out there).

                            Note that as per the author, the listing of words provided is a very small sample, and that it's impossible to mention all the words in one small article. This statement simply and logically implies that there are a LOT of such words in Tzakonian, i.e. there are a lot of Vlach words in Tzakonian.

                            The author concludes and states that "Tsakonic words are rescued in Aromanian-vlachic language", while Aromanian is simply a mixed language (Greek-Latin!) - and moreover, that this is strong evidence of the Dorian origin of Greek-Aromanians. (These assertions/conclusions can be challenged.)

                            Could the otherwise be more likely and possible, instead? Isn't it the Case that below evidence shows that Vlach words are rescued in Tsakonian? And does this tell us anything about the origins of Tsakonians themselves?

                            (Here are the screenshots. I have not made any comments about Homeric and Ancient Macedonian words in Aromanian, as it is not relevant to this topic.)

                            Source, for the screenshots below:






                            So, let's focus and analyze here one example: the first word listed under category 3. Tsakonic - Aromanian, which is the word "ZARA" (and in Aromanian it is given as "TZ'ROU").

                            zară: buttermilk - Russu, from *dzară, from Albanian dhallë; also Aromanian dhală (recent loan; < Alb)
                            zer: whey - Russu, Olteanu - older zăr, Moldavian/Banat/Aromanian dzăr, masculine back-formation from zară (see above).

                            It would seem pretty 'logical' to conclude that Tsakonic rescues this basic Vlach/Romanic word, and not the other way around.

                            Source:


                            What remains to be answered and investigated in more detail, is that,
                            are these words evidence of a 'language shift' (from bilingual Vlach-speakers to Greek-speakers, while retaining Vlach lexicon/words), or is it 'linguistic influence' (did Tsakonians adopt Vlach words through influence)?

                            FYI: One more screenshot, in Greek, which lists a few more Vlach words in Tsakonian.



                            Source for the above:


                            PS: Also, the word for "What" in Tsakonian appears to be Τσι (Tsi), which is the same as in Aromanian.

                            Last edited by Carlin; 04-27-2017, 06:37 AM.

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                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              #45
                              FYI - "Vlachs and Arvanites of Morea"

                              Last edited by Carlin; 03-28-2016, 01:16 PM.

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