Macedonia and the European Union

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  • Jankovska
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1774

    Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
    Regarding US, love them or hate them, They are the most important to have on our side. All we need is for them to have national interest in our country, Be it defence or financial, and they will defend it. Lets face it UN And EU have lost there credability after they could not stop the us atacking Iraq. And look at the UN"s eforts in sarajevo. Kids were getting shot at there feet and the un could not do anything about it. They were not alowed to fire back. They are as useful as having tits with balls.
    What are you saying? US? They are morons and we are where we are because of stupid trust in Big Almighty US. If the US was as great as you all rave about we would have been in NATO now and not fighting for EU to bring protection and peace in the country. The US is nobody in the world today, they are loosing every war they have gone to and we must move away from them ASAP.
    China, IRan, India should be our friends.

    Comment

    • Prolet
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 5241

      Yes not only that, can you imagine what the euro curency would do to A)our inflation and standerd of living B) tourism afordability C) international buisiness owners (who would have to raise wages to meet standard of living) Would find operating a factory in macedonia not viable anymore. Also like to add that there is no guarentee eu would bring more factories or buisiness to macedonia. I am not an economist. i could be very wrong. Just trying to use common sence.
      Kosovo and MonteNegro use the Euro Currency its working fine for them, i dont think it would do any good for us especially at this moment. Our economy needs to grow in order for us to change our currency to Euro just like what the Slovenians did for example.
      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

      Comment

      • Dzog
        Junior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 37

        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
        Yes not only that, can you imagine what the euro curency would do to A)our inflation and standerd of living B) tourism afordability C) international buisiness owners (who would have to raise wages to meet standard of living) Would find operating a factory in macedonia not viable anymore. Also like to add that there is no guarentee eu would bring more factories or buisiness to macedonia. I am not an economist. i could be very wrong. Just trying to use common sence.

        Actually, you are.

        Macedonia will not adopt the Euro immediately. The denar will still be the functional currency until the underlying economic and financial structures begin functioning properly and can properly support the use of the Euro. The implications of this, with respect to your claims, are as follows:

        1) Inflation will not substantially increase, unless the Government's economic policies dictate as such. When the Euro comes into play, the denar will be exchanged for the Euro at a set rate not 1-for-1 as many uninformed individuals commonly propose. In any case, hyperinflation post-Euro adoption is largely a myth. Inflation that did occur in countries after adoption of the Euro was the result of the the practices of certain firms not changing their prices in line with the set rate but by simply rounding up or replacing the sign of the denomination with the Euro (if, for example, France's set exchange of the Franc to Euro was 2 Francs for 1 Euro companies would simply change the price of a product of 2 Francs to 2 Euros by simply changing the sign instead of changing it to 1 Euro in line with the rate). This inflation was short-lived as these firms became uncompetitive.

        2) Standards of living will markedly increase in the EU. The experience of all EU countries shows this.

        3) Tourism affordability is already an issue in Macedonia with increasing competition by Albania and Bulgaria. In any case, prices in Ohrid, the Mecca of Macedonian tourism, are already on par with certain tourist destinations in Croatia and Greece which cater much better to their guests. This is unsustainable. I'd argue that entry into the EU will force the local tourism industry to improve its infrastructure and align prices more with the demand of its services.

        4) Contrary to your argument, international business owners will find operating in Macedonia much more attractive. I presume that Macedonia will have the lowest level wages and tax rates in the EU. The comparative cost and tax advantages will remain BUT both international and local industries will be further incentivised by access to a much larger market and a more stable economy.

        Note that these observations are really dependant on the ability of Macedonia to develop an economic structure that can harness the advantages of the EU.

        Personally, I do advocate the distinct advantages that EU entry offers but it is not be aspired to unconditionally. The fundamental right of Macedonia to govern itself and essentially determine what it can call itself should not be negated for any purpose.
        Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

        Comment

        • Pelister
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2742

          The Macedonian leadership (and UMD) are prostituting themselves for the E.U and NATO.

          These people and this organizations speaks about membership as though our legitimacy depended on it.

          Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact a sensible and reasonable look at the current political conditions point to the fact that E.U membership and NATO membership are not in the best interests of the Macedonians.

          We should be attacking the U.N (who has violated its own charters), and attacking the E.U institution, using its rules and NATO, rather than trying to "buy" our way in.

          One of greatest and most dangerous myths facing all Macedonians today is that Greece stands in our way of membership. When institutions, such as the U.N violate their own charters, articles and rules - our enemy is not Greece, rather the institution itself. Pursuing membership by our Constitutional name should be taken up with the institution itself, rather than with Greece. Anyone who is in direct talks with Greece, or supports the talks is an enemy of the Macedonian people, and is planning to betray us, because clearly we need to be addressing the governing rules of the institution itself (U.N, E.U and NATO). In this strategy, Greece is irrelevant.

          It is actually very simple solution.
          Last edited by Pelister; 10-16-2009, 07:51 PM.

          Comment

          • Dzog
            Junior Member
            • Sep 2009
            • 37

            Pelister:
            Macedonia can't really attack the EU and NATO when Macedonia has no say in the way they operate. The only practical solution is to use members that align with the Macedonian argument as proxies but its not often that you see members of a relatively exclusive club bagging out that club.

            As for the UN, do you not see the difficulty in trying to attack something that the country has already agreed to?

            Your solution is simple because you think it is but I have an inkling that you really don't know what you're talking about.
            Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

            Comment

            • Bill77
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 4545

              Thanks Dzog what you say makes sence some what. But like everything positive, there has to be a negative. just have to find the right balance.

              But like i said, i am not an economist nor do i have a crystal ball, but i can only talk from curent expeiriance. First of all, (again i know little about) But are the latest entrant Bulgaria any better off curently?

              Also i want to point this out.
              A) you mention that the euro will be implemented later later on and denar wil remain. Um 2006 i was there, i had to pay rent in euro, i bought a car in euro's. The euro's are well and truly a circulated and disierd curency.

              B) economy and My experience in Greece. 30 % unemployment in Lerin. evry one was crying for there drakma to come back. They claim there pockets were full of money back in the Drakma days. The expense is obvious, they come to bitola to bye where we use to go to lerin to bye during the yugoslavia days. That will stop bitola will suffer. euro means the rich will get richer (those that work) the poor will find it tougher. A cousin of mine felt 35 denari to much for him for a can of coke. where is he going to find 2 euro's once the price change ocurs for that coke can. Another example is, i bought 6 coffees for friends in Lerin cost me 18 euros. That afternoon i bought the same in bitola cost me 180 denari about 3 euro's. This can't be good for tourism. You give an example about ohrid and the price in ohrid are ridiculously high for acomodation. as beutiful as ohrid is you can get an apaartment in solun for less than half the price of ohrid hotel. now if you are not macedonian which would you pick to stay.

              sory for any speling mistakes i was in a hurry writing this. lol
              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

              Comment

              • Dzog
                Junior Member
                • Sep 2009
                • 37

                Yes, Bulgaria is much better off.

                The euro is used because it is widely accepted as a form of payment but it is not the official currency. The euro is accepted in Macedonia for a few reasons: 1) it is essentially the currency of the main players around them; 2) those receiving payments want to avoid the costs of exchanging denars to euros and 3) with the euro, the people selling you services/products will generally extract more value from you than they should. This does not mean that the euro is the official currency of Macedonia.


                The unemployment and economic problems in Greece is attributable to the nation's poor economic policy and the irresponsibility of their banks.

                People wanting the drachma back? As I said, the problem was not with the change to euro currency but rather with local retailers using it as an opportunity to rip people off. I don't think Macedonia will suffer from similar problems because of the wide use of the euro and the ability discern between genuine value and inflated use of the euro.

                Your cousin will find the 2 euros from the higher pay that he will inevitably receive. However, as we both agree, it depends on how Macedonia harnesses the benefits of EU membership. It isn't an automatic phenomenon.
                Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

                Comment

                • blackcactus
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 242

                  Macedonia should not join the EU period

                  But Macedonia should always strive to have higher standards than the EU

                  We should continue to learn what's best about the EU in area's of the environment, human rights, judiciary, economy, education, healthcare, and apply it to Macedonia, the rest we discard

                  We can never compromise our history, our future

                  This is our test as a people
                  The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                  “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by blackcactus View Post
                    Macedonia should not join the EU period

                    But Macedonia should always strive to have higher standards than the EU

                    We should continue to learn what's best about the EU in area's of the environment, human rights, judiciary, economy, education, healthcare, and apply it to Macedonia, the rest we discard

                    We can never compromise our history, our future

                    This is our test as a people
                    I agree BC.
                    The hard way (and only proper way) is by following your strategy. But the lack of cash makes this seem impossible to Macedonian politicians. Joining the EU will help to tick most of the boxes for progress ... but at a cost which is difficult to measure at this point.

                    The politicians will always seek short term gains and the EU is all about solving short term concerns.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • blackcactus
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 242

                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      I agree BC.
                      The hard way (and only proper way) is by following your strategy. But the lack of cash makes this seem impossible to Macedonian politicians. Joining the EU will help to tick most of the boxes for progress ... but at a cost which is difficult to measure at this point.

                      The politicians will always seek short term gains and the EU is all about solving short term concerns.

                      As odd as this may sound from someone who does not want Macedonia to join the EU, applying for the EU and even NATO is a good thing for the country, as we strive to do our best in so many areas, it motivates the government, business, and people to aim for something higher

                      If we improve our standards, tell the EU we are still interested, they give us financial and expert aid to improve further, if we openly reject the EU, then we get nothing, and are left isolated

                      I wouldn't be surprised if the current Macedonian government is playing this card to get as much as it can from the EU without actually being in the EU, at least not until it's by our own terms, time has always been on our side, we can wait, but we should continue to work with the EU and NATO to get much needed reforms through
                      The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                      “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

                      Comment

                      • Pelister
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2742

                        Originally posted by blackcactus View Post
                        As odd as this may sound from someone who does not want Macedonia to join the EU, applying for the EU and even NATO is a good thing for the country, as we strive to do our best in so many areas, it motivates the government, business, and people to aim for something higher

                        If we improve our standards, tell the EU we are still interested, they give us financial and expert aid to improve further, if we openly reject the EU, then we get nothing, and are left isolated

                        I wouldn't be surprised if the current Macedonian government is playing this card to get as much as it can from the EU without actually being in the EU, at least not until it's by our own terms, time has always been on our side, we can wait, but we should continue to work with the EU and NATO to get much needed reforms through
                        The reforms or standards are needed badly in Macedonia, and you right that it makes it a better place.

                        But Greece is still the darling of the E.U and it is the E.U that supports Greece. There is a century of abuse by the Greeks that has been conveniently sidelined by all and sundry in the E.U (and to some extent in the Macedonian government).

                        I hope you are right in that we can get want we want from the E.U without being a member, if membership means negotiating our Macedonian nationality away.

                        Membership is important, but I would put it down the list of priorities for the Macedonian government. I wish very much that the priority of the Macedonian government was overturning the term FYROM at the U>N which it can attempt to do on the grounds that the U.N has violated its own articles. The law is the law.

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          The past is the future of Europe

                          The past is the future of Europe



                          By Tale Buling

                          November 10, 2009



                          The grand idea of United Europe, conceived in the mid 20th century by Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, Paul Henri Spaak and Alcide de Gasperi was to be an answer to nationalism infested Europe, which plagued the continent in two world wars and several regional wars that destroyed most of Europe, physically and emotionally.



                          It seemed, at that time, that Europeans have finally come to their senses, and learned that nationalism does not resolve anything, and, in fact, It Is the root of the problem, a stumbling block, which no one can overcome or conquer. Nationalism must be out – people, cultures, democracy, justice, law and order, equality, human rights, progressive ideas must be in! EU was to be a club that all can join, as long as all share the same values…regardless of National origin, religious affiliation, race or ethnicity.



                          Today, half of a century later, the EU finds itself powerless or unwilling, to adhere to it’s most precious law- the one guaranteeing humans their rights, regardless of their national, political or religious affiliation.



                          How else one can explain the completely unreasonable, bigot request made by the EU towards the Macedonians: If you want to join the EU change your name, denounce your ethnicity, language, history, nationality, admit that you don’t exist and then you can join the European Union ! In other words – commit national suicide! “Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and, protection of minorities…” is written in the Maastricht treaty, which must be adopted by ALL members before accepted in the Union. Is it so? The EU condones and actively supports Greece and its nationalistic policies and that makes the EU willing participant in discriminatory practices, even if some of the member states do not practice it. EU cannot pick and chose and selectively apply its laws, policies …in some member states and completely disregard in others, while making “big deal” about it when negotiating membership with new candidates.



                          The Republic of Macedonia respects all human rights including the right to ethnic and religious determination to all Macedonian citizens, Maastricht treaty or not, including those of the surrounding countries: Greek, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Vlach, Roma, Turk… ALL enjoy unprecedented rights and benefits in the republic of Macedonia, while with exception of Serbia ethnic Macedonians have no rights at all, and are not even recognized as minorities, especially in the EU member states of Greece and Bulgaria. Several reports written by the United Nations , Helsinki watch and others , condemns both: Greece and Bulgaria, for their nationalistic policies, to date EU is not interested in the issue, and support’s its member states, regardless how wrong they may be, thus EU practicing one thing and preaching another. The policies toward the Macedonian minorities in Bulgaria and Greece are shame to the EU, as if the Maastricht treaty does not apply to Greece and Bulgaria, and it may, again, ignite the nationalistic nightmare and paradigms of the 20th century.



                          EU must tell the Macedonians straight upfront: “No Macedonian nation, no Macedonian language, no Macedonian history, no Macedonian ethnicity…Macedonians don’t exist..” or tell Greece and Bulgaria to comply with the Maastricht treaty, recognize the Macedonians and their right to self determination, apply the rule of law, and if Greece and Bulgaria refuse it will be clear the EU is just a joke, and- the past is the future of Europe.
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Bill77
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 4545

                            I did not want to start a new thread so i will post here. cheers (i hope you don't mind George)

                            "Greece scores worst in corruption ranking"


                            "EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS – Greece is perceived as the most corrupt of EU countries, along with Bulgaria and Romania, an annual corruption perception ranking released on Tuesday (17 November) by Transparency International shows.

                            Carried out in 180 countries around the world, the 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index measures the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians on a scale where 0 is the most corrupt and 10 is graft-free."


                            Last edited by Bill77; 11-18-2009, 02:00 AM.
                            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              I did read that it is exactly the same as Bulgaria, Romania and Macedonia.
                              Given that Macedonia is not in the EU, I would suggest it would leap-frog all of these countries the minute it joins the EU if it ever does such a stupid thing.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Bill77
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 4545

                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                I did read that it is exactly the same as Bulgaria, Romania and Macedonia.
                                Given that Macedonia is not in the EU, I would suggest it would leap-frog all of these countries the minute it joins the EU if it ever does such a stupid thing.
                                Yes, but also macedonia moved up 1 position now equal with Greece. Its not a great improvement since last year, but it is some none the less. i also agree that we would leap frog these countries the minute we join EU, but evan if we don't join, we will leap frog them in no time. Considering we are a fairly young independent country compared to the Greece who claim they invented democracy and almost anything else you can think of, we are progressing extremely well.
                                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                                Comment

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