Ventilator

[Soldier of Macedon]

In the context of Macedonia beating Greece in a basketball game, no, I don't care about the flag or constitution. Is it an all consuming thought that'll get me through the next 60 years of being a Macedonian? Nah, but for a few days I felt like a very proud Macedonian. One that could say, "you know what you lamo greek fuckers, you changed our constitution, you forced a flag upon us, and we still kicked your ass!! In your hairy ugly faces!"

Bij, you should always care about the flag and constitution. That doesn't mean you can't rub the win in the face of Greeks, but in an event like that where the world is watching we should never lose sight of the bigger picture than the game - the Macedonian Cause. I probably wouldn't use the same term that Vangelovski is using for you, but by definition he is correct in saying that you're flip-flopping on the issue if you can't be consistent. You can understand that, can't you"? You do see the paramount importance of being consistent, don't you?

[George S.]

we are getting the same tired excuses.for the use of the ventilator.People are simply too apolegetic about the ventilator.We are getting peole wanting to sit on both sides of the fence.Some people are saying we should do this or that.i say we can't be all things to all people we can only be to some people.At the moment we are trying to convert the govt of macedonia.If we can just do that the rest will fall into place.The type of flag macedonia uses does matter it is either the flag of capitulation which is the ventilator.We are getting heaps of excuses of why we are using it.Or the flag of choice & freedom which is the macedonian sun the sonce.I know which i would want.If the macedonian cause is to use the right name as in the constitution & use of the rgight flag which is for the cause.

[Vangelovski]

Oh. Is that so? Here I was thinking you just hated females.

To try and hide your ideological flip flopping by accusing me of being sexist is a new low on this forum. I take offence to that and will be speaking to the other Admins about this behaviour.

[Bij]

To try and hide your ideological flip flopping by accusing me of being sexist is a new low on this forum. I take offence to that and will be speaking to the other Admins about this behaviour.

are any of the other admins females?

[Bij]

Bij, you should always care about the flag and constitution. That doesn't mean you can't rub the win in the face of Greeks, but in an event like that where the world is watching we should never lose sight of the bigger picture than the game - the Macedonian Cause. I probably wouldn't use the same term that Vangelovski is using for you, but by definition he is correct in saying that you're flip-flopping on the issue if you can't be consistent. You can understand that, can't you"? You do see the paramount importance of being consistent, don't you?

Yes, yes, I get it. I said something naive in a euphoric state of happiness which has been hashed and rehashed. You're right, it's inconsistent. My words on this forum are inconsistent with my actions IRL which have a zero tolerance policy. YES it's paramount to be consistent. I'm just going to have to become angrier at the world

BTW I like your method of approach much better.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, yes, I get it. I said something naive in a euphoric state of happiness which has been hashed and rehashed. You're right, it's inconsistent. My words on this forum are inconsistent with my actions IRL which have a zero tolerance policy. YES it's paramount to be consistent.

I am glad you see it that way.

I'm just going to have to become angrier at the world

No, you don't have to become angrier, just more measured and consistent when it relates to the Macedonian Cause.

BTW I like your method of approach much better.

I know, we all have our own ways. Sometimes it is hard to accept criticism even when it is constructive, and it is also hard to hold back 'inaet' which leads to comments one doesn't really mean. Add that to the fact that people cannot always adequately gauge sentiment on an internet forum and it can quickly lead to heated debate. If most of you met in person, you wouldn't be as ruthless to each other, and you would also be able to notice the demeanour of others.

[Bij]

I am glad you see it that way.

No, you don't have to become angrier, just more measured and consistent when it relates to the Macedonian Cause.

I know. Sometimes it is hard to accept criticism even when it is constructive, and it is also hard to hold back 'inaet' which leads to comments one doesn't really mean. Add that to the fact that people cannot always adequately gauge sentiment on an internet forum and it can quickly lead to heated debate. If most of you met in person, you wouldn't be as ruthless to each other, and you would also be able to notice the demeanour of others.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but if you are referring to Vangelovski as "constructive criticism" then I think you are nuts. but that's a debate I don't want to get into.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but if you are referring to Vangelovski as "constructive criticism" then I think you are nuts. but that's a debate I don't want to get into.

Vangelovski has his own style, it can be considered very direct and blunt, but he doesn't go on the attack against people as soon as they enter the forum. After a while how 'constructive' can the criticism be if the recipient isn't willing to see the logic in the message? Some of you are attacking his 'manner' while he is attacking your (lack of) 'consistency'. When it really boils down to it, being 'consistent' is more important than being 'nice' with respect to the Macedonian Cause.

[Bij]

Vangelovski has his own style, it can be considered very direct and blunt, but he doesn't go on the attack against people as soon as they enter the forum. After a while how 'constructive' can the criticism be if the recipient isn't willing to see the logic in the message? Some of you are attacking his 'manner' while he is attacking your (lack of) 'consistency'. When it really boils down to it, which characteristic is more important for the Macedonian Cause?

so you admit he attacks people and is too direct and blunt but that's OK because he believes in the Macedonian cause?

whatevs. would rather watch the AFL grand final than discuss his mannerisms

[Soldier of Macedon]

I never said it was OK to attack people, but it's not like the people he is attacking aren't attacking him either. Don't deliberately misconstrue my words, you know exactly what I meant, the Macedonian Cause needs people to be consistent first and foremost, not nice. You can all work on your approach to each other if you ask me.

[Vangelovski]

are any of the other admins females?

Bij, you claim that I attack newbies as soon as they enter the forum. Now you are also claiming that I am sexist. Show some evidence or retract your claims.

If you can't do either, then I'm about to show you how "harsh" I can actually be when I want to as opposed to the moddly coddling I've been giving you to date.

[Vangelovski]

Here is a short overview of one of the flip-flops that I have been talking about. In this instance, we will look at Bij.

Some here either can’t see it, or don’t want to see it, but Bij is ideologically flawed. Now, we are left with two possibilities:

a) She’s not really all that well versed; or
b) She’s is one of those regular flip-flops who uses dirty tactics to blunt the MTO Inc. message.

What are those dirty tactics? Well, it kinda goes like this. They apologise for one of Macedonia’s capitulations and when they are questioned on it, they try to throw sand in everyone’s eyes by claiming that they have been “attacked” and “insulted”, all the while they are the ones who are personally attacking and insulting other posters. Why do they do this? To try and derail topics which they see as threats to their own ideas. Lets look at Bij as the latest example.

Below is her very first post dealing with the ventilator debate in the Basketball thread:

Take a valium and sit in a corner somewhere and weep over the ventilator, you fruit loop.

You want unity for the Macedonian people yet you are only dividing them on this forum.

Loser.

Then she continues, unprovoked:

I could answer all of your questions with an honest, heartfelt response about the flag, patriotism and why you're wrong but others have tried that and all you do is keep ruining this happy thread with your bullshit and repeating yourself over and over again.

So all I have to say is ...

SHUT THE FUCK UP

Notice in the above post that in addition to her potty mouth, she clearly shows that she disagrees with MTO Inc. by stating that we are wrong – well, that I am wrong. She goes on below with her tantram:

Are you certifiably insane yet or are they still testing you?

OK I'll play your little game if it helps you jerk off at night

Greece can't change what's in my heart and mind. They can try to, will try to and have tried to, but they'll never succeed. I'm sure every other person you've insulted in this thread feels the exact same way as I do.

The flag, name and constitution are superfluous to me. The feelings I get when Macedonia smash Greece in an international tournament like Euro Basketball are far superior to a patch on their jerseys.

I have a question for you now, you pest. Did your mum not give you enough love as a child?

Notice in her post above, and again in addition to her potty mouth and insults, she clearly states that the flag, name and constitution are superfluous to her. Another clear indication on where she stands on the Macedonian cause. She continues below:

LOL Ok sugar puff. I'll let my ignorance keep me warm at night while you play internet warrior with your ventilator vengeance (sounds like a good movie title if you ask me).

A ventilator vengeance? And she claims to be in line with the cause! Below she continues her tirade on the ventilator thread after she disappears for a while, unable to answer her ideological flaws:

This is why you're a fuckwit. You're so quick to attack and make little to no effort to have a constructive conversation with someone, odma pocna so "Aussie Macedonians don't just sit on their butts complaining" - who the fuck is complaining? If you want to be an activist, you need to stop attacking and start explaining. You obviously have a lot of knowledge and passion on the topic, put it in the right place and stop being such a fucking jerk. I feel like draping myself in the ventilator za inaet because you're such a douche bag, but don't worry, I wont.

Notice above how she is now claiming that people are attacking her!!! No attempt to answer her ideological flaws, but in fact continues her personal insults and that potty mouth! Below she continues to claim that others are doing the “insulting” and not her!

and pray tell what exactly you're doing away from insulting people on this forum about the ventilator?

But what about all the above!? All those unprovoked insults, swear words etc? But no, she keeps going, throwing sand in everyones eyes:

I've read enough of you jumping on everyone. If that's what passes as "activism" nowadays, no wonder Macedonia is where it is.

Sorry, this forum is not teenager friendly. This forum is a full of anger, spite, prejudice and is a place teamed with full blown nutjobs and a lot of repeated information. It's sad that this masks a lot of great information on this forum. VERY SAD. The forum will only appeal to a small percentage of people who may understand or get something out of it and will scare off 99% of people who do not want to be attacked for not knowing everything or wanting to ask a question.

I will add that I don't think this is a bad place. I mean, I'm still posting here, aren't I?

Mods - do you think the forum appeals to the general Macedonian? Do you not see how intimidating it can be to post here?

Notice above she is claiming that the forum is full of anger, spite , prejudice and nutjobs!?!?! Other than herself, is she able to show any examples?

instead of being a prick to everyone on the forum, how about you put together a 500-1000 word article on what the ventilator means and how every day macedonians can be proactive about eliminating it without being considered extremists?

anyway enough of your mood swings - come on mods, be a little progressive. Run a Macedonian Youth Organisation parallel to this site!

Notice above that now she calls the MTO Inc. “extremists”!?!? Not only does she not agree with the MTO Inc. cause, but she considers us to be “extremists”. But then she goes off again:

Did your mum wash your masturbating sock? Is that why you're so cranky and irrational?

V, the twat "jumped" first. I was just putting on my "thick skin" [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Tom/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

Again, not her fault, some “twat” jumped first! Just to shore her ideological view up, here’s a picture she posted:

what did you say about skin?

What is really compelling is the following. Below she makes a sexist remark:

Ok let's all admit things have gotten out of hand and hug and make up.

This forum, although overrun by testosterone, is a great wealth of information and I've spent hours upon hours on here reading articles and info.

I personally think the efforts of some members are misguided and yes Tom I feel you are incredibly rude to people who fundamentally agree with you but differ on approach but c'est la vie. If I wasn't up for the debate, I would stop posting.

Rather than arguing let's put some goals in to place. I know the first post explains the mto position on the flag, let's better articulate it and start spreading it to websites that use the flag and appeal to them to stop. I think this would be a good start.

What!?!?! Testosterone...but later she accuses me of being sexist! See below:

Oh. Is that so? Here I was thinking you just hated females.

are any of the other admins females?

These are a small sample of the DIRTY TACTICS used by people like Bij on this forum. They push anti-Macedonian ideas and then try to blind everyone to the fact by accusing others of the very things they are doing in order to derail the topic.

[Risto the Great]

And ...... The ventilator is bad because it is an extension of the Interim Accord. Macedonians were forced to get rid of their flag & gave it up willingly. Now some Macedonians love it. They are stupid, pushing an agenda contrary to the Macedonian Cause or misinformed. There is hope for the misinformed.

[Bij]

Vangelovski, why are you writing in third person? Are you addressing these issues with me or are you writing my MTO biography?

If you are, I think you missed my birth place, early childhood, teenage years, and well, everything prior to the month of September 2011.

FYI, my favourite food is shopska salata. Just in case you wanted to know.

If we're going to play fairy tales, let's start right at the beginning of this one, shall we?

I've tried to refrain from commenting on this thread but, I feel I must.

Sigh. This is the story of Vangelovski's life, trying but not trying hard enough, or, let me pretend I was going to control myself, but let me piss on everyones corn flakes by ripping to shreds a sporting victory by a small sporting nation (the one you are trying to represent??????)

While I send my congratulations to the team that beat Greece, I regret that the said team was not Macedonia. Many of the posters seem to have been misinformed. It was a country called FYR Macedonia that beat Greece. It was a country that sewed the ventilator onto its uniform.

I really would have loved to be a fly on the wall when Bo McCaleb ad Antic were sitting around saying "ya know what'll really piss off Vangelovski and MTO, if we were to sew the national flag of the country we're representing on our jersey". As opposed to the other countries, who had sewed on their favourite looney tunes cartoon characters on to their jerseys. d'oh!

What I really like about your posts Vangelovski is your use of the same catch phrase, 'showing your true colours' and your verbatim use of putting words in other peoples posts that don't really exist, just to fit the hysteria you have in your mind.

So now you're back to accepting FYROM and the ventilator because they won a basketball game? So long as you know who you are, it doesn't matter what your called officially or what flag you fly, is that right? You see Bill, eventually everyone shows their true colours.

Then you like to display your dictator side, as follows:

Bill77, you're totally missing the point. But while you stick that image up in your bedroom, remember to chant FYROM because they are two sides of the same coin. A more relevant caption would have been, "Koga nemozes da si Makedonec, Firomec e dovolno".

I think its time for another one of those discussions on the slave mentality. Some are falling off the wagon again.

Shocking! You telling people what they're thinking and how to feel! Jamming words down their throats that they're not saying.

HEY this is starting to get fun! Let's see what else Vangelovski has said...

Here in begins Vangelovski's first real attack - it's a female, ofcourse.

You're unacceptable. I'm not sure what it is you don't understand. Greece forced us to change our flag. Now you think that the forced flag, which basically means Greece controls us, is something good. Somehow you think black is white, up is down and back is forward. TELL us WHY you think its fine to have a flag that Greece forced us to have? Tell us WHY you think Macedonians should be proud about the fact that Greece forced us to change our flag.

Even when your back is been whipped your selling it like a victory! Good little slave girl.

Above is another display of Vangelovski completely misinterpreting everything and making up utter bull crap.

Please note, the expression "Good little slavegirl". Why point out the sex? Why refer to a full grown woman as a girl? Why be so patronising?

Yet in rare moments, Vangelovski shows a lot of respect for the men on this forum.

Dear MTO Members,

I would like to apologise to Bill77 for calling him a number of names in a post that I have now withdrawn. Bill77 did not deserve those terms used against him. I thank a younger and much wiser man for pointing that out to me. He know's who he is.

Vangelovski continues his attack upon the females of the forum -

Wake up to yourself.

P.S. Try and make some sense while your at it.

I suppose in YOUR reality, females don't make sense because they belong in the kitchen?? oooh look, i'm chucking a Vangelovski, putting words in people's mouths that never existed. Awesome.

Well I can't make this all about the one female. Let's see how Vangelovski treats other females on the forum.

I've seen it Julie. What point are you trying to make?

Complete and utter disregard with no respect! Is anyone surprised?
But the attack on Julie continues unprovoked!!!!!

How is using the ventilator tyring? That's just doing what the Greeks want them to do. Trying is when you use the sonce.

You're typical of the slave - you go off into a fantasy world to try and drown out the pain of the whip and then convince yourself that the straps on your back don't really mean anything - so long as your fantasy world remains in tact in your own mind.

I take it you are of the opinion that it doesn't matter what Greece and Macedonia's vassal politicians change, as long as you "know who you are". Good girl.

Then Vangelovski begins his attack on me. Again, he starts patronising the females of the forum, referring to me as a slave and then calling me a good girl.

More examples of Vangelovski patronising and attacking the females of the forum:

You'll need more than ignorance to keep you warm and more than fantasy to stop the pain of those lashes.

You are seriously deranged if you think Macedonians chose the ventilator. You are even more deranged if you think Macedonians chose to change the sonce.

I think we need to keep this post of yours for posterity.

You really are pathetic Jankovska.

That's how stupid of a claim you have just made.

What a genius you are!!!! You really got me this time!!!

This is a massive conspiracy you've uncovered!!!! You're really onto us now!

You're making a fool of yourself Jankovska, you obviously don't know what a blogspot is - its basically an online personal diary. He can post whatever he likes on there and noone can stop him.

But this is all just another smokescreen for your own ideologically flawed stance. You have accepted Greece's domination over Macedonia. Worse yet, you are trying to get others to accept it as well!

yet the males of the forum are treated with respect and sincerity on a continuous basis, even in this thread. But I won't rehash this thread as we're already in it, except to respond to this:

What are those dirty tactics? Well, it kinda goes like this. They apologise for one of Macedonia’s capitulations and when they are questioned on it, they try to throw sand in everyone’s eyes by claiming that they have been “attacked” and “insulted”, all the while they are the ones who are personally attacking and insulting other posters. Why do they do this? To try and derail topics which they see as threats to their own ideas.

Well I'm glad to see i'm still well versed in copy and paste and quoting. Phew that was so much fun! Couldn't enjoy pulling your quotes out of context and completely misconstruing them more!! Now I see why you wasted all that time doing the same to me.

/sarcasm

Vangelovski, if my aim was to sit on MTO and use "dirty tactics" to taint the Macedonian cause, wouldnt I have done this 2 years ago when I joined rather than now? Why wait two years before putting my "agenda" out there?

[Vangelovski]

Bij, your sinking into irrelevance. I never stated that I have not insulted anyone. In fact, I consistently apologise if anyone feels they have genuienly been insulted by me. You're claims to sexism are quite ridiculous and you have not provided any evidence that would stand up in court. All you have done if put further words into my mouth, which is defamatory in itself. I speak to you and Jankovska in the same manner that I speak to everyone else here. Just because I refer to you as a 'girl' and others as 'boys', that is not sexism. Its a simple statement of fact.


But all this just corroborates what I have been saying. You are still throwing sand in everyone's eyes to try and cover your ideological flaws. You clearly stated that you consider my ideological views wrong, meaning you must also logically disagree with those of the MTO Inc., because they are identical:

I could answer all of your questions with an honest, heartfelt response about the flag, patriotism and why you're wrong but others have tried that and all you do is keep ruining this happy thread with your bullshit and repeating yourself over and over again.

So all I have to say is ...

SHUT THE FUCK UP

Tell us Bij, what am I wrong about? What is it you disagree with?