Ventilator

[aleksandrov]

You're quoting Petar Popovski the same guy who stated that the Olympics started in Macedonia and not in the ancient Hellene city-states. Yeah I am very skeptical of what you posted from his book. ...I think you need to re-evaluate Popovski and his claims. Where is this wonderous flag Popovski claims exists?

I emphasized that I didn't intend to engage in a persuasion context with you on this sub-topic because it detracts from the fundamental issues concerning the flag. You insisted on going into historical research about the use of the Sun between antiquity and modern times, so I provided you with a reference. I also indicated quite explicitly that if you look up the book you will find references to the sources Petar Popovski relies on. There are many other sources that are relevant to answering your historical question, but they won't be relevant if you are only looking to prove your preconception (promulgated mostly by Greece) that the Sun symbol was not used by Macedonians as a cultural symbol between ancient times and modern times. While the conclusions and theories he draws from those sources might be debatable, what is less debatable is that those sources provide ample evidence that contradict your own presumption. You have come back here trying to defend an presumption that the Sun symbol wasn't used by Macedonians between antiquity and modern times without even having checked Popovski's book, let alone the sources he relies on. Your logic of trying to discredit everything he says based on something specific that he has said about an unrelated point, and which you find ridiculous, is fundamentally flawed. If I was to apply your logic, I wouldn't bother discussing anything at all with you.

You need to stop equating ignorance of the existence of something with proof that it didn't exist. I have critically evaluated Dr Petar Popovski's book just like I critically evaluate anything that I read before taking it seriously. You need to re-evaluate your own methodology of reasoning and argument, especially since you have tried to defend a modern flag by stubbornly evading and downplaying the most fundamental issues relevant to choosing a modern day national flag, while clumsily focusing on a relatively peripheral question, and doing so in a way that only reinforces the propaganda of those who question the roots of the modern Macedonian identity.

Btw, that translation of the Petar Popovski quote is terrible. I hope you don't rely on such low quality translations in your research.

[Vangelovski]

I'm sorry but that doesn't work that way. A play of words is one thing. Reality is another. I don't accept fyrom. I accept Macedonia only. But I accept the 8-ray flag you spit on because it was not drawn in a laboratory in Athens but is of Macedonian origin and maybe even ancient as well. I see your arguement and acknowledge your points. But by spitting on the new flag you are disrespecting Macedonia.

TM,

By accepting the ventilator you are accepting the Interim Accord and its implications - the loss of sovereingty and freedom.

You can excuse it as much as you like (the mythical war theory that somehow purifies the original treason and the theory that noone doing anything to change it makes it ok - but not for the name??), but it is still a treasonous capitulation that has resulted in a loss of Macedonian freedom.

The fact that you apply an argument for one symbol (ventilator), but refuse to apply it to another symbol (FYROM) which came from the same capitulation is illogical. All you have done is gone with your gut feeling and ignored the consequences to the Macedonian cause for freedom.

[aleksandrov]

...The flag is a symbol of their insipidness and is right up there with FYROM and out of principle I would demand it changed if I lived there.

Risto,

It shouldn't be changed because it was never legitimately adopted. It should simply not be recognized as ever having been a valid symbol of a sovereign Republic of Macedonia, just like the whole Interim Accord and Ohrid Framework Agreements, with all their elements, should not be recognized as valid acts of a sovereign Republic of Macedonia.

The sovereign Republic of Macedonia has only ever validly adopted one national flag and that is the only flag that we should consider the OFFICIAL flag, at least until it is VALIDLY changed BY THE SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN PEOPLE, in accordance with the FREE will and interests OF THE SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN PEOPLE, as distinct from the ill will and coercive action of our oppressors.

[Vangelovski]

For those who have forgotten what the Interim Accord actually is:

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7);

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11); and

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

How does one claim to reject the Interim Accord and its PURPOSE (the deconstruction of Macedonian sovereignty and identity), but then attempt to justify the acceptance of Article 7, which accomplishes both the deconstrution of our sovereignty and identity?

[aleksandrov]

... I don't accept fyrom. I accept Macedonia only. But I accept the 8-ray flag you spit on because it was not drawn in a laboratory in Athens but is of Macedonian origin and maybe even ancient as well....

It was drawn up and ratified by the same vassals of Athens who co-invented and accepted Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (making the FYROM name also of 'Macedonian' origin), and who explicitly sought something that was not of ancient origin. The Interim Accord flag is no more of ancient Macedonian origin than the solar system is.

... by spitting on the new flag you are disrespecting Macedonia.

By legitimizing the 'new flag' you are legitimizing Greek and domestic vassal violation of the sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia, of the human rights of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, of the human rights of Macedonians generally, and of human rights generally.

I will respect your 'new flag' no more than I would respect a 'new father' that Greece allowed its vassals in the (Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia to choose from a line-up for me, to replace my real father, whom they have taken away coercively.

As far as disrespecting 'Macedonia' is concerned, I can respect the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement version of Macedonia about as much as I respect Ivan Mihajlov's idea of Macedonia (his "Switzerland of the Balkans") - probably even less, given that Mihajlov at least truly believed in and fought for his misguided concept, rather than just accepting it from somebody else because he was a cheap and spineless politician.

[TrueMacedonian]

Alexandrov said;

Your logic of trying to discredit everything he says based on something specific that he has said about an unrelated point, and which you find ridiculous, is fundamentally flawed.

Why is it flawed? The mere fact that this man is making a claim no one else would even consider because it's ludicrous not only puts him in a category with guys like Vasil Bogov but discredits himself. And Macedonians wonder why no one takes these historians seriously

If I was to apply your logic, I wouldn't bother discussing anything at all with you.

Believe me I feel the same way about you from what you wrote years ago - http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ans-t5530.html

but there is evidence of maintenance and promulgation of a Macedonian identity, ancient Macedonian heritage, and the Macedonian ('Slavonic') language under Roman Macedonian rule (headed by the Macedonian Dynasty)

Did they use this symbol as well since it was a continuation

You need to stop equating ignorance of the existence of something with proof that it didn't exist.

Then you should practice what you preach and take Aleksovski into consideration before labelling him part of the Bogov, Iljov, Popovski group.

You need to re-evaluate your own methodology of reasoning and argument, especially since you have tried to defend a modern flag by stubbornly evading and downplaying the most fundamental issues relevant to choosing a modern day national flag,

But you evade the fact that the people in Macedonia have done nothing to get this back as their flag. They have accepted the 8 ray flag as their own by not urging their government to bring back their flag. THEY obviously recognize the 8 ray flag as their countrys flag. Whatever the circumstances and whatever your beliefs the flag represents the Republic of Macedonia for the Macedonians who live there. It may hurt the diaspora but obviously it didn't hurt the Macedonians enough in Macedonia to do anything about it. A government is only a government when the people want it. I was shocked that there wasn't a revolution to save their countrys name, flag, and identity.

while clumsily focusing on a relatively peripheral question, and doing so in a way that only reinforces the propaganda of those who question the roots of the modern Macedonian identity.

What a clumsy statement. Why is it so hard to ask questions about certain aspects of our people and culture? Are you afraid of the propaganda that gets pumped out of Athens and Sofia? I'm not. It's all easy to discredit. Just like it's easy to discredit many Macedonian myths. And believe me Macedonians have theirs as well.

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski said;

By accepting the ventilator you are accepting the Interim Accord and its implications - the loss of sovereingty and freedom.

That's your opinion. I don't see it that way as well as other Macedonians who have accepted the 8 ray. I much rather prefer the original flag myself.

You can excuse it as much as you like (the mythical war theory that somehow purifies the original treason and the theory that noone doing anything to change it makes it ok - but not for the name??), but it is still a treasonous capitulation that has resulted in a loss of Macedonian freedom.

Many equations factor into the non-recognition of Macedonia. Germany for one screwed Macedonia over. They decided on a business deal with modern "greece" instead of doing the right thing by Macedonia. They ultimately pushed Macedonia into a dark corner that resulted on the dominoe effect of negotiations. Macedonians did nothing to stop the loss of their flag. If they want it then they should go and get it back. But they don't want it, have accepted this new flag to represent their country, and are probably even proud of it. Soldiers did die under the 8 ray flag. They honored Macedonia with their lives under this flag. Your logic to discredit the flag on the grounds that it was "imposed" is wrong and I don't think the Macedonians in Macedonia feel the same way you do about it. If they did the 16 ray may still be their flag.

The sovereign Republic of Macedonia has only ever validly adopted one national flag and that is the only flag that we should consider the OFFICIAL flag, at least until it is VALIDLY changed BY THE SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN PEOPLE, in accordance with the FREE will and interests OF THE SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN PEOPLE, as distinct from the ill will and coercive action of our oppressors.

But the Macedonians did not do anything significant to get their government to get the original flag back. They obviously are apathetic about it, like the new flag, or don't want to cause an uproar. So the people essentially did accept this flag because they did nothing to keep the original. And believe me, in my opinion, they should have never ever ever given up the original under no circumstances. But such is life and they allowed this to happen.

[aleksandrov]

..Why is it flawed? The mere fact that this man is making a claim no one else would even consider because it's ludicrous not only puts him in a category with guys like Vasil Bogov but discredits himself. And Macedonians wonder why no one takes these historians seriously

It is flawed for reasons I already gave you, which you conveniently ignore because they don't fit your preconceptions, just like you ignore the fact that Popovski relies on OTHER SOURCES (i.e. not "no one else") for evidence on which he bases his conclusions.

Believe me I feel the same way about you from what you wrote years ago - http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ans-t5530.html

What does feeling have to do with anything? Try using reason instead. I still stand behind what I said on that thread. At least one person (Soldier of Macedon) who vehemently disagreed with me at the time has been open-minded enough and prudent enough to undertake some critical research and discover that there is a reasonable basis for what I said on that thread.

Did they use this symbol as well since it was a continuation

What? What does that even mean? And how is it relevant to this discussion?

Then you should practice what you preach and take Aleksovski into consideration before labelling him part of the Bogov, Iljov, Popovski group.

Your desperation to win an argument just for the sake of feeling like a winner is making you very clumsy. Where did I mention Aleksovski or Bogov or Iljov anywhere on this thread?

For your information, the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney, as a result of my direct lobbying and coordination, helped to fund Aleksovski's archeological research about ten years ago (I would have to check my archives for the exact year), when almost nobody else in Macedonia and the diaspora was offering practical support (especially not the people who are responsible for the imposed flag). I respect his work as an archeologist, but he cannot and does not appear to claim any special expertise as to how the flag of oppression and submissiveness came about and what inspired its designers, regardless of any coincidental similarity he finds to things he has dug up before or years after that flag was illegitimately imposed.

But you evade the fact that the people in Macedonia have done nothing to get this back as their flag.

How am I evading it? What I say to you about accepting the imposed flag as Macedonian applies to EVERYBODY else who accepts it as such. Don't try to use other participants in capitulation as an excuse for your own participation. And don't try to make yourself feel better by pretending that every Macedonian in Macedonia accepts your 'new flag' as his/her own.

If people like Goce Delchev took your approach, they would have joined the majority of their own people in accepting and even 'respecting' slavery and the Ottoman flag as a reality, rather than committing themselves to rooting out the slave mentality of their people and rejecting the oppressor's impositions.

What a clumsy statement. Why is it so hard to ask questions about certain aspects of our people and culture? Are you afraid of the propaganda that gets pumped out of Athens and Sofia? I'm not. It's all easy to discredit. Just like it's easy to discredit many Macedonian myths. And believe me Macedonians have theirs as well.

The clumsiness is yours. If you are going to repeat the propaganda of our oppressors, you should work harder to check and evaluate the relevant evidence first, rather than clumsily regenerating it.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

The purpose of the Interim Accord is to deny our sovereignty and identity. If you don't agree with this, then please tell us what you beleive the purpose of the Interim Accord is and WHY?

Further, you still havn't answered HOW war is able to mystically transform treason (capitulation over the flag) into something to be proud of.

You have also failed to explain why Dostoinstvo (the organisation of 2001 veterans and current Macedonian soldiers) refused to use the ventilator and uses the sonce instead if they are so "proud" of the treasonous ventilator?

I think you need to look over the Interim Accord, which I have summarised for you above. I think you need to provide a solid explanation of how you can claim to be against the Interim Accord, yet justify and legitimise Article 7. Its not a matter of "opinion" that the Interim Accord was designed to eliminate our sovereignty and identity and that Article 7, the loss of our flag, supports both goals.

[TrueMacedonian]

Your desperation to win an argument just for the sake of feeling like a winner is making you very clumsy.

Ouch you hurt my pride but I'm not in it to win it like you think.

What does feeling have to do with anything? Try using reason instead. I still stand behind what I said on that thread. At least one person (Soldier of Macedon) who vehemently disagreed with me at the time has been open-minded enough and prudent enough to undertake some critical research and discover that there is a reasonable basis for what I said on that thread.

Well this is the MTO contribution of research and info collecting on the East Roman era where it concerns Macedonians - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1530 - it is not only a great topic (one of my personal favorites actually) but it also demonstrates what a few proud Macedonians can do when they work together.

but there is evidence of maintenance and promulgation of a Macedonian identity, ancient Macedonian heritage, and the Macedonian ('Slavonic') language under Roman Macedonian rule (headed by the Macedonian Dynasty)

Something concerns me here. What exactly was the ancient Macedonian heritage that the Macedonian Dynasty headed with?

If people like Goce Delchev took your approach, they would have joined the majority of their own people in accepting and even 'respecting' slavery and the Ottoman flag as a reality, rather than committing themselves to rooting out the slave mentality of their people and rejecting the oppressor's impositions.

Poor assumption of me considering that I have stated my personal opinion on the matter on this same page and pages before that.

The clumsiness is yours. If you are going to repeat the propaganda of our oppressors, you should work harder to check and evaluate the relevant evidence first, rather than clumsily regenerating it.

So asking questions is now propaganda? Questioning certain things that should not be questioned out of fear of somehow spreading propaganda is how you view this? That is a very poor assessment on your part. You use the word clumsy very much but you seem to be the one having problems walking straight on this so far.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

The purpose of the Interim Accord is to deny our sovereignty and identity. If you don't agree with this, then please tell us what you beleive the purpose of the Interim Accord is and WHY?

I do agree with what you are saying Vangelovski. I said this before and I'll say it again,,,, The original flag should have never been removed as the State symbol representing the Nation.

Further, you still havn't answered HOW war is able to mystically transform treason (capitulation over the flag) into something to be proud of.

Alot of Macedonians feel this way. I know you don't. So why bother dwelling on this? The Macedonians that feel that those soldiers that died under this flag not only honored Macedonia but honored the flag. You don't agree with it but alot of people do.

You have also failed to explain why Dostoinstvo (the organisation of 2001 veterans and current Macedonian soldiers) refused to use the ventilator and uses the sonce instead if they are so "proud" of the treasonous ventilator?

Good. And they should lead the cause for the re-establishment of the original flag. I am sure the Macedonians would get into that idea if they see some strong individuals pushing this fight. But 2001 was 9 years ago. 2010 and their flies the 8 ray overhead.

I think you need to look over the Interim Accord, which I have summarised for you above. I think you need to provide a solid explanation of how you can claim to be against the Interim Accord, yet justify and legitimise Article 7. Its not a matter of "opinion" that the Interim Accord was designed to eliminate our sovereignty and identity and that Article 7, the loss of our flag, supports both goals.

I did read it. I wonder how many Macedonians in Macedonia have read it. If they have then they are poking holes in their own sail boat instead of trying to build a navy. Trust me I see what you are saying. But you will not get the 16 ray flag back to represent the Republic of Macedonia as long as the Macedonians that live in Macedonia do nothing about it. How long has it been since the implementation of this new flag? And yet Macedonians in Macedonia don't seem to care all that much like people in the diaspora do. Again I say this because at the time I was shocked myself that there was no Revolution in Macedonia when these negotiations included the FYR and the removal of the 16 ray. The 16 ray personally means something to me as a Macedonian. But I will not spit on the 8 ray because of some document you keep presenting here. That document could be null and void tomorrow if the majority of the country wanted it null and void. They just choose not to do anything about it and have accepted the new flag as their own. Call it spineless, call it apathetic, or call it that they actually like this flag and don't mind it representing their country. But disrespecting it helps nothing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I also indicated quite explicitly that if you look up the book you will find references to the sources Petar Popovski relies on.

Aleksandrov, were there any visual references included in this book that displayed the ancient symbol as used by Kastriot? Are you able to upload a picture of it? Unfortunately I don't have access to this book so I can't confirm myself.

[aleksandrov]

Ouch you hurt my pride but I'm not in it to win it like you think.

If you weren't, you would have apologized for blatantly misrepresenting me by suggesting that I have made some statement about Aleksovski and others that I clearly have not.

Well this is the MTO contribution of research and info collecting on the East Roman era where it concerns Macedonians - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1530 - it is not only a great topic (one of my personal favorites actually) but it also demonstrates what a few proud Macedonians can do when they work together.

Maybe that's where you should be asking your loaded question, but also giving due consideration to the answers.

Something concerns me here. What exactly was the ancient Macedonian heritage that the Macedonian Dynasty headed with?

What is the point of this open-ended question?

Poor assumption of me considering that I have stated my personal opinion on the matter on this same page and pages before that.

Your opinion seems to be that we should respect an imposed flag that you admit is a product, and thereby a symbol of an act of oppression and treason, only because (you assume that) submissive Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia respect it. Why is that a poor assumption, given the ample evidence of it on this thread?

So asking questions is now propaganda? Questioning certain things that should not be questioned out of fear of somehow spreading propaganda is how you view this? That is a very poor assessment on your part. You use the word clumsy very much but you seem to be the one having problems walking straight on this so far.

You asked a loaded, rhetorical question about something that is not a fundamental consideration in the position I have taken regarding our flag, and have demonstrated a lack of willingness to give due consideration to relevant research and reasoning that doesn't suit your preconception. Greek propagandists do that all the time when the claim that we allegedly plucked the Sun symbol out of ancient history in modern times, without it having been present in our culture in the intervening period.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

Respecting the treasonous capitulation does not help in rectifying the situation. How do you expect people to revolt over the Interim Accord and the ventilator specifically, if you are calling on them to respect it? Has anyone ever revolted against something they respect?

You cannot claim that "the sonce should never have been removed" and acknowledge that is was treason and then in the same breath say that we have to "respect" that treason. This is unacceptable, and is no different to UMD's double-talk on the name.

And I still have not been provided with an explanation by anyone who used the argument that "war" has somehow purified a symbol of treason? HOW has "war" made the ventilator "ok"? Why only the ventilator, and no other aspects of the Interim Accord? Why the double standard? And finally, why has "war" made the ventilator "ok" for those who used the war argument, yet Dostoinstvo, the organisation representing the 2001 veterans who actually fought the war, refuses to use the ventilator?

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, were there any visual references included in this book that displayed the ancient symbol as used by Kastriot? Are you able to upload a picture of it? Unfortunately I don't have access to this book so I can't confirm myself.

SoM,

There is an impression of the Kastrioti flag based on written descriptions by various sources, as well as pictures of traditional Macedonian artifacts with the Sun symbol, but they are of poor quality and I can't scan them anyway. There are also references to the many old churches and monasteries in Macedonia, folk dress decorations etc. that display a version of the so-called "Sonce od Kuklish". There are references to sources suggesting that the Kastrioti were coerced into changing their symbol because of the implication that they are heirs of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. There is also a reference suggesting that the Kastrioti replaced the Sun flag with a red flag displaying a golden lion. There are references to ethnological sources suggesting that certain Macedonian folk dresses have ancient Macedonian origins. I personally don't take the conclusions and theories drawn by Popovski as completely unquestionable, but he certainly refers to enough sources to dispel the presumption underlying TM's question. For serious research, I recommend buying Dr Popovski's book (it's pretty thick) and then checking the sources he relies on. That's not something to get into on this thread, IMO.