Opinion Leaders.

[Boge]

So here we are, we have supporters of Brat Ljube and his intentions in Changing Macedonia’s name, Supported by the likes of Indigen, Paul, Vangelovski, Rogi, Soldier of Macedonia…. These are supporters of the Man and have publicly stated their intentions. Oh, I think there was someone else who even organised a disco as a fund raiser.

So chaps you all asked the community to give for Brat Ljube.

You also took it upon yourselves to attack individuals who disagreed with your opinions. Where do you stand now?

[Rogi]

You are mistaken. There are no supporters of Ljube Boskovski here. The Macedonians you listed have only ever 'attacked' (in your sense of the word) individuals who have opposed the Macedonian Cause, not Macedonians who disagree with their opinions.


Let's take this a step at a time...


Ljubco Georgievski was once supported by patriotic Macedonians, he was brought into the leadership of what would become a patriotic Macedonian political party under the guise of DOOM. You may not be aware of this group.

At the time, he was one of the few Macedonians in Macedonia and outside calling for Macedonian independence, while everyone else was dreaming of a Yugoslav eternity.

During that time, at which VMRO-DPMNE had strong support by (initially very few and soon quite many) Macedonians in the Diaspora, as VMRO-DPMNE had made only pro-Macedonian statements and had taken only pro-Macedonian actions and Ljubco Georgievski was its' leader making those statements and taking those actions, which did lead to a Macedonian independence.

His positions changed, almost immediately after gaining power, and that quickly became quite evident, even his closest supporters dropped him for the traitor that he is.


Similarly, it happened with Ljube Boskovski, who at a time when Macedonia was at war, did stand up for Macedonia. He did not give in then, and he was sold out by Macedonians and he went to jail, spending some 4 years in jail, for defending Macedonia.

The support for him, was the support that should be given to any Macedonian who stands up to defend Macedonia and all that while, he had espoused nothing but patriotic sentiment.

Until he came back to Macedonia and decided to get messed up in politics again, where his new views (opposite to the statements he gave 5 years prior) where in support of changing a name and other anti-Macedonian positions. Immediately, his support dropped too.


So, what you have here is Macedonians who support an ideology, a cause, and will support fellow Macedonians who share that cause.

When those individuals, whether they are leaders or at the grassroots level, deter from the cause, they are immediately cut off, because the support is not for them as individuals, but as vessels for furthering the Macedonain Cause.


Yet you seem to mean to imply something here on Macedonians who support a Macedonian Cause?

Perhaps you could look at the Macedonian history, if you're at all knowledgable on the subject, and see if you will express the same implied sentiment, in the same manner as you imply in your post above, for all the Macedonian patriots and soldiers (cheta) who fought for an independent Macedonia, only to later find the leader of their organisation to turn out to be a traitor.



What I find interesting, is where you sit on all of this and where you sat 20 years ago before independence? What are your thoughts on the Interim Accord? What are your thoughts on the Framework Agreement?

[Vangelovski]

So here we are, we have supporters of Brat Ljube and his intentions in Changing Macedonia’s name, Supported by the likes of Indigen, Paul, Vangelovski, Rogi, Soldier of Macedonia…. These are supporters of the Man and have publicly stated their intentions. Oh, I think there was someone else who even organised a disco as a fund raiser.

So chaps you all asked the community to give for Brat Ljube.

You also took it upon yourselves to attack individuals who disagreed with your opinions. Where do you stand now?

Boge,

Who supports "Brat Lube" and a name change? Who stated their "intentions" publically? Who organised fund raisers?

Are you another UMD fanatic trying to desperately take some pressure off the great Meto and his unwavering and public support for a name change, the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

How about putting you real name behind your statements?

[Boge]

You are mistaken. There are no supporters of Ljube Boskovski here. The Macedonians you listed have only ever 'attacked' (in your sense of the word) individuals who have opposed the Macedonian Cause, not Macedonians who disagree with their opinions.


Let's take this a step at a time...


Ljubco Georgievski was once supported by patriotic Macedonians, he was brought into the leadership of what would become a patriotic Macedonian political party under the guise of DOOM. You may not be aware of this group.

At the time, he was one of the few Macedonians in Macedonia and outside calling for Macedonian independence, while everyone else was dreaming of a Yugoslav eternity.

During that time, at which VMRO-DPMNE had strong support by (initially very few and soon quite many) Macedonians in the Diaspora, as VMRO-DPMNE had made only pro-Macedonian statements and had taken only pro-Macedonian actions and Ljubco Georgievski was its' leader making those statements and taking those actions, which did lead to a Macedonian independence.

His positions changed, almost immediately after gaining power, and that quickly became quite evident, even his closest supporters dropped him for the traitor that he is.


Similarly, it happened with Ljube Boskovski, who at a time when Macedonia was at war, did stand up for Macedonia. He did not give in then, and he was sold out by Macedonians and he went to jail, spending some 4 years in jail, for defending Macedonia.

The support for him, was the support that should be given to any Macedonian who stands up to defend Macedonia and all that while, he had espoused nothing but patriotic sentiment.

Until he came back to Macedonia and decided to get messed up in politics again, where his new views (opposite to the statements he gave 5 years prior) where in support of changing a name and other anti-Macedonian positions. Immediately, his support dropped too.


So, what you have here is Macedonians who support an ideology, a cause, and will support fellow Macedonians who share that cause.

When those individuals, whether they are leaders or at the grassroots level, deter from the cause, they are immediately cut off, because the support is not for them as individuals, but as vessels for furthering the Macedonain Cause.


Yet you seem to mean to imply something here on Macedonians who support a Macedonian Cause?

Perhaps you could look at the Macedonian history, if you're at all knowledgable on the subject, and see if you will express the same implied sentiment, in the same manner as you imply in your post above, for all the Macedonian patriots and soldiers (cheta) who fought for an independent Macedonia, only to later find the leader of their organisation to turn out to be a traitor.



What I find interesting, is where you sit on all of this and where you sat 20 years ago before independence? What are your thoughts on the Interim Accord? What are your thoughts on the Framework Agreement?

I'd also like to know if you still have a photo of Tito in your living room, did you pray to him at night, and did you hope there would never be an independent Macedonia?

Mate you were a Brat ljube supporter, You organised disco's for him, gave him money! That's cool! Just stay out of Macedonian matters

[Rogi]

Actually, I'm only 25 and didn't organise any Disco's for anyone, it's all a bit before my time. You may have me confused?

All I've ever known is to be a proud Macedonian and support an independent Macedonia and the Macedonian cause.

So, if I may ask, or if I may reverse the questions a little: why have you kept out of Macedonian matters given how seemingly all-knowing and all righteous your portray to be? Surely you have an excellent excuse for abandoning and not helping the Macedonian people?

Let me encourage you to start...

Try posting something of use to the Macedonian cause, rather than a baseless and cowardly attack on fellow Macedonians.

[Boge]

Boge,

Who supports "Brat Lube" and a name change? Who stated their "intentions" publically? Who organised fund raisers?

Are you another UMD fanatic trying to desperately take some pressure off the great Meto and his unwavering and public support for a name change, the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

How about putting you real name behind your statements?

Ohh...I missed this. You too are a Brat ljube supporter. Ajde or is hypocrisy your middle name. Mate just go back on your statements, shit you freely give one out.

Pozdrav

Boge

[Phoenix]

Mate you were a Brat ljube supporter, You organised disco's for him, gave him money! That's cool! Just stay out of Macedonian matters

Boge, I think both Georgievski and 'Brat' Ljube duped most Macedonian's, the fact that both were dropped like hot potatoes shows the intolerance people have for these sell outs...once bitten twice shy

Boge, how do you feel about UMD...?

[Pavel]

people from what i can see boge likes to be a stirrer. but boge i think you often go too far. many people who supported the brat like rogi said only did when he was seeming to do his job properly. when he started saying things like lets change the name, they stopped supporting him. this is fair enough. you can only go by what the latest actions are.

[Boge]

Actually, I'm only 25 and didn't organise any Disco's for anyone, it's all a bit before my time. All I've ever known is to be a proud Macedonian and support an independent Macedonia.

But you were (and probably still are) a Tito supporter. But hey, that's cool. Though, if you can make suggestions to me, then I can suggest you stay out of Macedonian matters, given how diametrically opposed your views are to the Macedonian Cause.

Although, given that nobody seems to know you (or perhaps you were in jail, from what I can gather from your earlier posts?), clearly you have stayed out of Macedonian matters, and you clearly couldn't care less about Macedonia and Macedonian matters since you've not bothered to do anything for any Macedonian or for Macedonia.


I'm 25 and have been involved in the Macedonian community for the last 2-3 years, in fact straight after finishing University.

You are how old? 50? 60? What is your excuse for abandoning the Macedonians?

Lovely soliloquy there. You still haven’t explained your support for Brat Bube, garn mate do it. Just explain your support. You may follow it up by why you don’t support Brat Bube now. Stay away from the purported personal attacks. Just explain WHY YOU ARE AGAINST BRAT BUBE NOW. We are now all exposed to your anti Macedonian Venim.

[osiris]

the only people who dont make mistakes in any cause are the ones who dont do anything and never have an opinion.

many people were fooled by the patriotic promises made by lupcho and lube, thats nothing to be ashamed of given their apparent commitment and dedication to a free macedonia.

i wasnt one of those people and to this day find the use of the vmro name or tmro out of order, but i dont think that people who supported both lube 1 and lube 2 can be accused of being unpatriotic and critisized for that mistake, everyone makes mistakes and its how they react to their mistake that is important.

[Boge]

people from what i can see boge likes to be a stirrer. but boge i think you often go too far. many people who supported the brat like rogi said only did when he was seeming to do his job properly. when he started saying things like lets change the name, they stopped supporting him. this is fair enough. you can only go by what the latest actions are.

well people who didn't support the brat sentiments were placed as outcasts. by these very people you support. So explain to me why i am extreme

[Boge]

Oops, One more thing Pavel.

There is no substance behind the rhetoric that originates from the bulk of the individuals I have addressed.

[Phoenix]

well people who didn't support the brat sentiments were placed as outcasts. by these very people you support. So explain to me why i am extreme

Boge, which Brat sentiments are you refering to...pre Big House or post Big House...?

[Pavel]

never said you were extreme. just saying you can only go by the latest actions of people. i never support any politicians i only agree or disagree with particular actions or statements from day to day. i think this is the safest way to be. and i was never outcast for this. if somebody outcasted you i dont know about that. when the brat started openly doing things wrong (and he may have in secret before too) people walked away from him. this is fair enough.

[Boge]

Boge, which Brat sentiments are you refering to...pre Big House or post Big House...?

Ne te razbiram, izvini. I'm referring to Brat Ljube supporters, they supported him at some time and vehemently opposed those who disagreed with their sentiments.

Conversely we now have those VERY BRAT LJUBE supporters accusing the non Ljube supporters as "Anti-Macedonian". I merely asked for an explanation from the Ljube supporters like Rogi and the highly opinionated Vangelovski. Nothing more and nothing less.