Macedonian proto-nationalism

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    Macedonian proto-nationalism

    If anyone has ever read Eric Hobsbawm's "Nations and Nationalism since 1780" you may have read about his take on proto-nationalism. Here's some sentences regarding proto-nationalism.

    “Why and how could a concept so remote from the real experience of most human beings as ‘national patriotism’ become such a powerful political force so quickly?......

    You cannot point to the natural communities (families, villages, etc.) familiar to all humans throughout time, because nations differ from these in size, scale and nature. They are, as Benedict Anderson put it, imagined communities.......

    However, perhaps there are certain communal sentiments that lend themselves ideally to being converted to or marshaled in favour of, nationalism. Call these proto-national sentiments, and they can either be supra-local (that is, uniting disparate communities, like belief in the Virgin Mary), or springing from local political communities.......

    So what does constitute proto-nationalism? This is a difficult question to answer because it must be located in the minds of the illiterate, because it is a popular sentiment, and before the 20th century, the vast majority of mankind was illiterate.

    Interesting. And how do we explain the village of Macedonia in the Timis region of Romania from the 14th century which to this day is indeed inhabited by a Macedonian minority?



    The Macedonians from Romania are a Slavic, Orthodox population that came from Macedonia`s territory in several migration waves starting with the eleventh century. The Macedonians are a recognized national minority in Romania since 2000. The Macedonia village (Timis county) is one of the first Macedonian settlements in Romania, documented by Catholic Church records in 1332-1337 under the name of Machadonia.
    and still further information


    page 160

    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #2
    amazing find as usual TM congrats.Very intersting read.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

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    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1595

      #3
      bump...........
      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3810

        #4
        Bump. Post coincides with the Smyrna Clerk discussions of nationalism.
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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        • VMRO
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1462

          #5
          If anyone wants the book by Eric Hobsbaw - "Nations and Nationalism since 1780"

          I have it in pdf.
          Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

          Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

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          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            #6
            To go off the write-up: There are numerous examples of Macedonian proto-nationalism which have been evidenced in this forum multiple times. I believe it may have been Victor Friedman (those who know him will know he is incredibly knowledgable about Macedonia) that estimated modern Macedonian nationalism to have began to develop around the 1860s.
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

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            • TrueMacedonian
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 3810

              #7
              Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
              To go off the write-up: There are numerous examples of Macedonian proto-nationalism which have been evidenced in this forum multiple times. I believe it may have been Victor Friedman (those who know him will know he is incredibly knowledgable about Macedonia) that estimated modern Macedonian nationalism to have began to develop around the 1860s.
              I’m in disagreement. I don’t think you can point to a timeframe as I believe it is even earlier than 1860.

              Exhibit A:




              Exhibit B:

              <-----------------ORIGINAL TEXT WRITTEN WITH GREEK LETTERS | MODERN TRANSLITERATION INTO MACEDONIAN-----------------> Here is the English translation: The translation is taken from mk.wikibooks.org This book is very important, does anyone have more information regarding it?
              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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              • Liberator of Makedonija
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 1595

                #8
                Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                I’m in disagreement. I don’t think you can point to a timeframe as I believe it is even earlier than 1860.

                Exhibit A:




                Exhibit B:

                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1287

                I agree, you can't put an exact date on things like this. Friedman never provided evidence as to why he suggested the 1860s, its possible this was merely a passing rough estimate or when he believed the existence of a Macedonian identity by this point was undenaible. The earliest reference to "Macedonianism" is from the 1860s I believe.
                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #9



                  Comment

                  • Liberator of Makedonija
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 1595

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post



                    Very curious how the Bulgarian philism differs from Macedo-Bulgarianism? My guess would be the philism saw the Macedonians completely as Bulgarians and sought the integration of Macedonia into Bulgaria. Whilst Maceo-Bulgarianism could just be very Pro-Exarchist and whilst close with Buglaria, wished for Macedonia to be its own state.

                    No shock that "Macedonianism" intensified post-1870, the Exarchate can blame themselves for that one.
                    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                    Comment

                    • Daniel the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 1084

                      #11
                      Very interesting stuff. Further information from the Romanian wiki page on the village of Macedonia.

                      The settlement was founded by the Macedonian family (Maczedonia, in Hungarian) and already appears in the papal records of the diod (tax) from 1332-1337, under the name of Machadonia. In 1465 he had 50 houses and was owned by Ladislau Doczy (Vasile Doci?).
                      I wish there was some source conected to it. Love to know more about this Ladislau man.

                      Comment

                      • Liberator of Makedonija
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 1595

                        #12
                        As I have stated before, Victor Friedman cites the 1860s as the beginning of a concrete and widespread Macedonian identity. He categorises Macedonian figures of this period into two factions: Uniates and Separatists (also known as by other writers as "Macedonists"). Friedman states that the Uniates continued to believe in a joint Macedo-Bulgarian literary language that would act as a comprise between Macedonian and 'Thraco-Moesian'. The Separatists believed the growing Bulgarian literary language was already too favourable towards 'Thraco-Moesian' and discriminative against Macedonian, and so began to advocate for the formation of an independent literary language based soley on the dialects of Macedonia, completely independent from the other languages.
                        Last edited by Liberator of Makedonija; 05-16-2019, 01:45 AM.
                        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          #13
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post



                            Carlin, you wouldn't be able to provide the page after the last image would you? Very curious how the author differentiates between those 3 camps they've stated.
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Amphipolis
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 1328

                              #15
                              The whole book is availabe here:
                              So, let's start with books that can become your official historiography. Which ones would you add and what do you think about each one? http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresearch.policyarchive.org%2F11853.pdf&ei=FlLNU6LrA8aY1AWQvoCoBQ&a

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