Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    #46
    Originally posted by Dimko-piperkata View Post
    http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/11903/2/

    shameful is also the bulgayrian behaviour againt the macedonian minorities !
    when will be OMO-ILINDEN-PIRIN registered, mr zhelev
    Dimko thank you brat for mentioning the obvious. This bulgar fails to mention the Macedonian minority in Bulgarya today. What a pig.
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #47
      Originally posted by Rogi View Post
      Zelev has also once given a statement saying that there is no such thing as the Macedonian language and that it is Bulgarian.

      Anyone still think he deserves a medal? I'm a little confused as to why they're giving him a medal.
      Back in the day, I can only imagine they were thinking it would be like Kosova running back to Albania when Macedonia gained its independence.

      Of course he does not deserve a medal ... but this merely adds credence to the Pro Bulgar sentiment coming from Macedonia's leadership.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Prolet
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 5241

        #48
        Originally posted by Rogi View Post
        Zelev has also once given a statement saying that there is no such thing as the Macedonian language and that it is Bulgarian.

        Anyone still think he deserves a medal? I'm a little confused as to why they're giving him a medal.
        Rogi, Its always good to push for good neighborly relations, i dont dispute that he made the claims i do think that Bulgaria thought they would pounce on us as soon as we became independent, they thought it would be like Albania and Kosovo however we quickly distanced ourselves from Bulgaria and they we have a Macedonian Language and Macedonian People not Bulgarian and this is where the tensions erupted.

        If they knew from the start that we wouldnt have been a second Bulgarian State i believed they would have acted differently.

        Dimko, Our Government should be doing much more, If we dont help ourselves nobody will help us or do it for us.
        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

        Comment

        • Prolet
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 5241

          #49
          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          Back in the day, I can only imagine they were thinking it would be like Kosova running back to Albania when Macedonia gained its independence.

          Risto, Our responses are almost the same, well said
          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

          Comment

          • osiris
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1969

            #50
            bravo zhelev thats the mark of a brave and principled person.

            not many people admit to their misatkes spartan not just the greeks. i think there are quite a few brave greeks who have started to question their nations treatment of macedonains. hopefully they will not be initimitaded by the lunatics who have been determining greeks policies over the past hundred years.

            Comment

            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #51
              That is the thing about Bulgarians.

              They make it clear to all that there is a Macedonia, and that there are Macedonians.

              But the hypothesis underlying this thesis (which they conceal well) is that all Macedonians are ethnic Bulgarians.

              This Bulgarian thesis is supported by the Greeks thesis on the subject, which says that Macedonia was occupied by ethnic Greeks and ethnic Bulgarians, and that both were competing to dominate it.

              Comment

              • Jankovska
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1774

                #52
                Why are we jumping up and down with joy. The guy is fraud as most Bulgarians. They have always been like that. When they visit Macedonia they support Macedonia, when they go to Greece thhey support Greece, most in the gov are mafijasi anyway. We need our gov to say this and do something about it, nie sreka od Bugarite nema da vidime.

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3810

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
                  Why are we jumping up and down with joy. The guy is fraud as most Bulgarians. They have always been like that. When they visit Macedonia they support Macedonia, when they go to Greece thhey support Greece, most in the gov are mafijasi anyway. We need our gov to say this and do something about it, nie sreka od Bugarite nema da vidime.
                  Exactly the guy and his country is a fraud when it comes to Macedonia, the Macedonians, and the Macedonian minority in his country which he helped to suppress.
                  Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    #54
                    Please, stop this "good neighbourly relations" BULLSHIT pushed by UMD and their stooges.

                    It doesn't make any sense and there is no logic to it given Greece's position.

                    Comment

                    • Bratot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2855

                      #55
                      1. Интервју за Deutsche Welle од 11.04.2008

                      Желев: „Македонија и Бугарија имаат многу испреплетени односи“

                      ...Желев на прашањето зошто и денес во Македонија има сомневања во однос на бугарската политика кон Македонија, одговара: „Затоа што таа држава сеуште не е на јасно со својот национален идентитет. Меѓу другото многупати не‘ обвинуваа: „Вие ја признавте државата Македонија и независноста, но зошто не ја признавте и македонска нација, зошто не го признавте македонски јазик? “ Јас неколкупати на прес конференции и овде и во Скопје, на новинарите им одговарав вака: „Пријатели разберете дека меѓународно-правно се признава државата и нејзината независност и суверенитет, плус територијалната целовитост. А, каква религија има, каква националност има, какви ентички групи има внатре, какви културни традиции, тоа е внатрешно прашање. Штом вие сметате дека сте друга нација, ние како демократи не можеме да речеме: „Не, вие не сте Македонци, вие сте Бугари“. Иако, велам, на голем дел од населението етничките корени му се бугарски. Но, едно е етносот, а друго е националното самосознание. Ние долго време сме живееле разделени , поради лошата волја на судбината и како последица од тоа има таква раздалеченост и оформена е поинаква свест. Штом вие сметате дека тоа е така, ние како демократи тоа го признаваме.“







                      2. Наводна изјава при неговата формална посета на Шведска во 1993 за тамошниот весник Svenska Dugbladed, цитирана од сите грчки националистички сајтови насочени кон негирање на Македонија и Македонците.

                      ...In 1993 when the President of Bulgaria Mr Zelev was on a formal visit to Sweden and was asked by a journalist of the Swedish newspaper "Svenska Dugbladed" about the so called "Macedonian nation", he replied: "The Macedonian nation that was fabricated by the Commitern after the war was a Crime committed by Titoism and Stalinism".







                      3. Историски осврт на д-р. Михајло Миновски во кој ги наведува и објаснува позначајните настани околу Желев и неговата улога околу Македонија во времето кога тој беше претседател на Бугарија.
                      Извадок:

                      "...Во 1991 година Грција двапати се обидува да иницира тројна средба меѓу Грција, Бугарија и Југославија (Србија), а подоцна и Романија, чија цел била соседните земји да одлучат за судбината на Македонија. Бугарија го откажала учеството во грчките игри. На 14 септември 1991 година во Софија премиерот Никола Кљусев се среќава и со премиерот и со претседателот на Бугарија, Димитар Попов и Жељу Желев. Бугарските државници го потврдиле ставот дека нивната земја одбива да учествува во какви било разговори и договори за Македонија.

                      Бугарија ја призна Македонија на 15 јануари 1992 година со потпис од претседателот Желев. Пред признавањето, бугарскиот министер за надворешни работи Стојан Ганев ја посетува Атина. Грците го поставиле прашањето за името Македонија. Ганев го потврдил ставот на Бугарија дека нема да определува име на друга држава, односно дека го прифаќа уставното име на таа држава.

                      - Со признавање на државата, при истовремено негирање на посебноста на македонскиот народ, нација и јазик, Бугарија ја обелодени својата амбиција и се промовира како покровителка на Република Македонија, за заштита на националните интереси како нејзина историска задача - вели Миновски.

                      Тој посебно ја истакнува средбата на Желев и Мицотакис во Швајцарија на 1 февруари 1992 година, при што претседателот на Бугарија изјавил дека двајцата државници имале исти ставови за прашањето за непостоење на македонско малцинство, односно малцинства, и дека Република Македонија не може да има никакви претензии за свои малцинства кон двете држави.

                      На Бугарија и биле потребни две години по признавањето на Македонија за да воспостави дипломатски односи, што се случи на 20 декември 1993 година.

                      Миновски ја истакна средбата меѓу претседателите Глигоров и Желев на 12 август 1992 година, на која бугарскиот претседател изјавил дека во Бугарија не признавале и не можеле да признаат постоење на македонски народ, нација и јазик. Односите се влошуваат во 1993 година, откако Бугарија одбива билатералните договори, спогодби и други акти да ги потпишува на македонски јазик. Бугарскиот дневен весник „Дума“, орган на БСП, на 17 септември 1994 година повикува на национален консензус Македонија да се третира како втора бугарска држава..."

                      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                      Comment

                      • Dimko-piperkata
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1876

                        #56
                        the same racistic and deceitful phrases like the greeks

                        shame on our government for giving such enemies a macedonian award
                        1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum...
                        2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum...

                        Comment

                        • VMRO
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1462

                          #57
                          Bulgarian Passports for Macedonians

                          http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=112811





                          Bulgarian Passports for Macedonians: Debunking Myths


                          Macedonians - second-hand people?

                          Oliver Vodasov has managed to do something many Macedonians dream of – he has built up a successful career in Sofia, the capital of Bulgaria, a European Union member state.

                          Even though Macedonia is not a member of the union, Vodasov can freely work as a lawyer in Bulgaria after having been granted citizenship. For this to happen he had to prove Bulgarian ethnicity.

                          “I was born in the Macedonian town of Negotino and came to Bulgaria to study law in 1997. It is definitely considered more prestigious to study in Sofia as we have more opportunities to develop here, “ says Mr Vodasov.

                          He confirms that the bigger part of his colleagues at the university remained in Bulgaria just like him after landing a Bulgarian citizenship.

                          Oliver Vodasov and his colleagues are one of those, who annoy the Macedonian authorities and have given rise to accusations against the Bulgarian state of a covertly expansionist agenda. He however denies he has been encouraged to apply for Bulgarian citizenship or has done so under pressure.

                          “Bulgaria is the only place in the world where we, the Macedonians, are not second-hand people,” says he. “Do you think I would have worked as a lawyer if I had migrated to Germany?”

                          Bulgaria grants citizenship to Macedonians who prove Bulgarian ethnicity. The procedure requires providing their family name and birth certificate and filling in complex paperwork. Under Bulgaria's rules, perhaps two-thirds of of Macedonia's population of two million could be eligible for citizenship.

                          Tens of thousands have applied and nearly 20,000 have been approved since 2001. Acquiring a Bulgarian passport allows the holder to work in many European countries. Since Bulgarian laws allow dual citizenship, there is no need to renounce one's Macedonian documents.

                          “Not all Macedonian citizens apply with the aim to come and live in Bulgaria or use it as a gate towards other European Union member states,” saya Rayna Mandzhukova, head of the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad, a key unit in the process of getting a citizenship as it issues the certificate for Bulgarian ethnicity.

                          “It is very easy to obtain a passport. Fees are as low as 300 leva, around 150 euros, and the applicant does not have to be in Bulgaria but can go to a Bulgarian embassy,” Mandzhukova says.

                          The declaration of Bulgarian origin is the most important document at the agency. Mandzhukova denies claims that there is a let-out based on the presumption that “ethnic Macedonian” means “ethnic Bulgarian”.

                          “If no documentation is available, the agency can not issue a certificate of nationality,” she says.

                          First step towards Bulgarian consciousness

                          To prove Bulgarian origin, it is enough for Macedonian citizens just to declare it.

                          “To be honest with you, I have no doubts that someone who signs a document, saying that he is of Bulgarian nationality, won't take it as an insult if one day someone calls him Bulgarian,” Mandzhukova admits.

                          Even though the signature is sufficient documentation for the agency to consider the applicant of Bulgarian ethnicity, Mandzhukova goes further than that.

                          “I believe that this signature is the first step towards the formation of a Bulgarian consciousness,” she says.

                          And this is what nationalists see as a surge in Bulgarian consciousness, something that the Macedonian authorities strongly object to. Mandzhukova however denies that the state policy is confrontational.

                          “It is the right of every person to determine his status, we live in the twenty-first century after all!”

                          Planned amendments to the law for Bulgarian citizenship, which are expected to be approved soon, aim to uproot a new business that has grown up in rural Macedonia, with middlemen collecting hundreds of euros per person for preparing and submitting applications.

                          Under the legislative changes, the Bulgarian state is obliged to approve or reject an application for citizenship within one year. Currently applicants have to wait on average four or five years to be granted a Bulgarian citizenship.

                          “I believe that this deadline will restore the faith in the Bulgarian state,” Mandzhukova says. “Romania is much more liberal to those Moldovans who want to be granted Romanian citizenship. They need this passports to travel in European member states, including Bulgaria. Many members of the Bulgarian community in Moldova are forced to get a Romanian citizenship so that they can come and visit their children in Bulgaria. This is absurd, isn't it?”

                          Queuing for Bulgarian Passports

                          Virtually every Macedonian of Slavic origin is eligible to claim a Bulgarian passport.

                          Petar Kolev, 24, from the town of Stip, is one of the many young Macedonians who come to study in Bulgaria each year, taking advantage of the scholarships that the Bulgarian state offers. While in the 90s the number of candidates for Bulgarian universities stood at 100, this figure snowballed over the next decade to about 800 each year.

                          Petar has been lining up for Bulgarian citizenship since four years ago and unlike Bulgarian authorities and foreign news agencies says that the procedure is far from easy.

                          “Those who say the procedure is “ridiculously easy” are people who just observe the process and are not a part of it. I applied for Bulgarian citizenship in 2006 and my application is still somewhere among the different institutions that deal with the issue,” Petar explains.

                          He will graduate in a year and the failure to get Bulgarian citizenship makes him really nervous as the prospect of going back to Macedonia looms.

                          “I am not the only one who has to wait for five or six years before being granted a Bulgarian citizen. Sometime the applicants get the thumbs down.”

                          But in Macedonia suspicions remain. The tortuous history of the Balkans, old territorial claims and accusations of a covertly expansionist agenda have tensed relations between the two countries.

                          Bulgaria occupied much of Macedonia three times between 1878 and 1913, regarding it as part of an extended nation. In 1999 each nation renounced any claims to the territory of the other, but Bulgaria has still not formally recognized the existence of Macedonian language and culture. Politicians and media have suggested more than once that the Bulgarian state has a hidden goal of an ultimate “reunification”.

                          “It is only natural that the Bulgarian state takes care of the Bulgarian communities abroad, just as Romania and Hungary do. Nobody has the right to reprimand Bulgaria for the policy it leads regarding the ethnic Bulgarians in Macedonia,” says Mr Vodasov.

                          The peak in applications for Bulgarian citizenship from Macedonians – about 40,000 - came in 2004, three years before the country joined the European Union. It is too early to say whether the visa-free travels for Macedonians across the European Union will weaken the interest in Bulgarian citizenship.

                          “It is only a small part of Macedonians who get a Bulgarian passport to go to Europe. Most of them stay here in Bulgaria, others return to Macedonia. There is no reason in saying that Macedonians consider Bulgarian passports as entries to the European Union,” says Mr Vodasov.

                          “The Macedonian media reports, which say whole regions in Macedonia are threatened with depopulation, are absurd.” he says.

                          More Security

                          Macedonians strive to obtain Bulgarian citizenship for a number of reasons – to migrate to Bulgaria, to travel and work freely across the European Union and also due to the faith in the protection that the Bulgarian state can give them.

                          “I would risk saying that this emotional factor is the most important and most often cited reason,” says Mandzhukova.

                          She vehemently denies that the real motives are more pragmatic.

                          “To say that Macedonians obtain Bulgarian citizenship as a passport to Europe is a stereotype that gives a very distorted reflection of the truth,” she says.

                          According to her the influx of Macedonians to Bulgaria did not increase significantly after the country's accession to the European Union on January 1, 2007.

                          “The first signs f the hype came much earlier when Bulgarian institutions agreed that the document our agency issues is enough to claim Bulgarian origin. This is when the real increase in applications came due to the streamlining of the process.”

                          While in Macedonia many Macedonians try to cover the fact that they have signed such a declaration.

                          “Well, certainly nobody will shout it at the top of his lungs. But first of all if someone considers what the Macedonian authorities think important, he would not sign the declaration in the first place, “ Mandzhukova says.

                          Does everyone who declares Bulgarian ethnicity really believes in it?

                          “True, some of them do not believe in it, but they believe that the Bulgarian state can and will protect them when the need occurs.”

                          She however is not willing to talk on the subject.

                          “When the need occurs, the first to know about it are the Bulgarian diplomats in Skopje and Bulgaria's Foreign Ministry,” is her concise answer.

                          The list of those people features Dragi Karov, Spaska Mitrova (pictured below) and a number of others whose involvement in minor accidents has been criminalized “thanks” to their Bulgarian passports.

                          “It seems that the Macedonians who have a Bulgarian passport feel more secure.”

                          Emotional Bond

                          “I chose Sofia because it is more prestigious and because I feel emotionally attached to Bulgaria, “ says Petar and adds, quite self-confidently, that he speaks for most of the Macedonian students here.

                          For the sake of this emotional bond, which he half-heatedly attributes to the good grasp and belief in the version of history presented in Bulgarian books, many Macedonian students decide to swallow the bitter pill of leading the life of poor students away from their parents and at a place where living standards are three times higher than their birthplace.

                          Even though study in Bulgaria remains a sensitive subject, Petar Kolev is not afraid to give his name to journalists, saying this has never caused him problems when he goes back to Macedonia.

                          “Nobody can blame us for wanting to drink water from the source. I don't want anyone to teach me or interpret for me events that happened a hundred years ago,” Petar adds.

                          Even though Bulgaria was the first state to recognize the independence of the Macedonian state, many Bulgarians think that, deep down, their neighbors, are Bulgarians.

                          Petar himself confirms that view.

                          “This is where we feel at home,” he says.
                          Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                          Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                          Comment

                          • Big Bad Sven
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 1528

                            #58
                            This is a “hairy” issue for Macedonians.

                            You need the Bulgarian passport to be able to work/study in Bulgaria and be able to travel to the rest of Europe, but you need to declare that you and your family are ethnic Bulgarians. I don’t like that. It reminds me of Grkoman saying they need to pretend to be “greek” so that they don’t get any trouble and can land jobs in Solun, or Torbeshi flip flopping between being Macedonians or Albanians - so they can get some financial assistance.

                            The greedy and opportunistic Bulgarians have used this and exploited these poor Macedonians for their political agendas – eg they count these people as “Bulgarians” in Macedonian. The Bulgarians in Macedonia where les then 500 people, now with these “converts” there are over 20 thousand of them. Imagine if the so called “two thirds” of the “Slavic Macedonians” as the article suggests all had Bulgarian passports? The Bulgarian government would have a strong case in saying that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians as the citizens have signed it on paper, and we would look like fools.

                            The even scarier part here is that as the article suggests, a lot of these people go to Bulgaria very young and get educated there. I am ashamed to admit that I have some family members who went to Sofia for University and have come back as Bugaromans. They get “educated” all right, they get brainwashed into thinking they are Bulgarians. Also, don’t you think it’s a coincidence that ever since the Bulgarian government has started issuing out easy to get Bulgarian visas that there has been an increase of bugaromans and bugaroman activity in Macedonia?

                            With Macedonian success with the Schengen, I don’t see any point in Macedonians obtaining Bulgarian passports anymore. I would be disappointed if the numbers of Macedonians with Bulgarian passports keeps on increasing.

                            Comment

                            • fyrOM
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 2180

                              #59
                              A sad reflection of Macedonia full of heroes and opportunistic tractors and opportunistic wanabes who think its just on paper so it doesn’t count. Sad indeed. As the article says it would be funny if the Macedonians all took up Bulgarian citizenship just for gain only to find Bulgaria saying if you all feel Bulgarian then we might as well get reunited. Prodajeni dusi. Is it any wonder we are in the 21st century still trying to prove to the world we exist.

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #60
                                Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                                A sad reflection of Macedonia full of heroes and opportunistic tractors and opportunistic wanabes who think its just on paper so it doesn’t count. Sad indeed. As the article says it would be funny if the Macedonians all took up Bulgarian citizenship just for gain only to find Bulgaria saying if you all feel Bulgarian then we might as well get reunited. Prodajeni dusi. Is it any wonder we are in the 21st century still trying to prove to the world we exist.
                                I agree, very sad.
                                Same rubbish with many Egejci. Parents are whipped in Greece but still beating their proud Macedonian chests at home around the kids ... but many of the kids are living a very different life and could care less about the Macedonian issue.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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