United Macedonia Diaspora

[George S.]

vicsan thats the crux of it so answer the set question & stop the bs.You said you are giving honest answers.This is the place to do it.Where's the enlightenedment in all that so far.?

[George S.]

Vicsan so you beleive in a state of albanians ,nation state.You need to answer yes or no.

[George S.]

Vicsinad,do you hate being macedonian is that why you want to give as many rights to albanians.It's a irrefutable fact that the albanians don't like or respect us.Why should we be particularly dealing with them where we are doling rights & priveleges way beyond normal citizenry.Very soon if not now they will be virtually imune from macedonian law.Looks like that's where its heading.
Vicsan what do you get out of supporting the albanians & not the macedonians.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

Interesting concept, taking into account the seemingly grandiose scope of this vision, since this is a forum regarding Macedonia, I hope you don’t mind if we restrict your vision specifically to the region of Europe for now. So under this vision, what would constitute a “community”?, what determines each “communities” boundaries? , do these “communities” have a right to defend these boundaries?, are these “communities” sovereign in nature?, does each “community” operate completely autonomous or within a federal construct?, what form of political system is to govern these “communities”?, again will governance come from some sort of central council?, if so who is to make up this council and how will it function?, will each community perhaps have a nominated representative in this council?, Who will determine the laws of these “communities”?, will it be a one law for all or does each “community” abide by their own individual laws?, I’m highly interested in the details of the plans you have thought of for administering this vision of a union between the possible, I don’t know say three hundred odd thousand “communities” of Europe, particularly since this vision of yours would likely include my “community”.

Tomce, I appreciate your willingness to engage the conversation. Though I’m going to put a “?” at your willingness to engage it productively, as a bombardment of questions is going to produce a lengthy response that might be difficult to handle. One question at a time would probably be more efficient, unless the point of such bombardment is that you already have a point to make and this was a way of making it. But I’ll operate, cautiously, with the assumption you’re genuinely interested in having the discussion.

Because many of your questions can be answered together and have much overlap, I’m going to try to answer them the best I can without addressing each question individually. This is a very short and simple overview (rather, response) of my take on local communities. So when something needs more clarification or elaboration (which I’m sure it will), then just ask.

The first thing I would like to correct in my previous post is that I meant local communities. In the sentence I mentioned local civic engagement and control, and I hoped that was made clear throughout my post, and I assume it was as you mentioned the notion of 300,000 odd communities.

Yes, any time we talk about borders there’s always a difficulty determining what borders will look like. But this is not a unique problem to local communities. The good thing is that local communities already have defined borders: Europe is littered with thousands upon thousands of cities, towns and villages. This is probably the simplest and easiest way of defining a local community, but of course much more needs to be taken into account. First, we already know that most people (not all, especially those facing the pressure of financial and broader political constraints) choose to be in their given community. Thus, the first element of a “citizen desire” to be a part of the community exists, for the most part. Second, as with what constitutes anything, the conversation could become very philosophical and theoretical, but I’ll give you my understanding, developed from a combination of others’ ideas, my ideas and my experience. The best way to look at it is to how to differentiate communities from one another, putting current political borders aside. Usually, there is a geographic, environmental, economic and perhaps certain cultural feel of one community that differentiates it from another (though, there is of course, overlap). You combine this with peoples’ intent and desire to be a part of this community and not another, and it looks like we have something.

Well, one can make an argument that the same can be said about large regions that are defined by current political boundaries. A critical distinction is that putting an emphasis on local communities means giving all the decision-making power that affects that community to the citizens of that community (of course, as with environmental problems, what one community does upstream will directly affect the downstream community, but see the following paragraph for a response to that). They have to be small enough, or well-organized enough, that each citizen has the ability to have a direct say with regards to the decisions regarding the use and control the community’s resources. While for larger local communities some form of representative democracy might be necessary (unless those larger communities subdivide themselves further for at least political purposes), local communities will use direct democracy. And people will want to participate in it because it is confined enough that they will more likely have the time and resources to understand and evaluate issues that visibly affect them, their families, their neighbors, and their local environment. It will call for a lengthy discussion of rights and liberties, and I have a feeling those things will mean different things to different communities.

However, it doesn’t have to mean that there is isolation between communities. Rather, there probably will be a lot of interaction because communities are not limited to local communities and because the environment does not have borders. Of course, courts and commissions will probably need to exist in order to investigate and evaluate interactions between communities and to mediate or rule judgment on conflicts. With regards to military protection, I think that is best left up to the citizens of the communities. If they decide to align with one or more other communities because of a) a threat posed from another aggressive local community or b) because they feel a “humanitarian” need to intervene in another community, that power making decision should be given to the local communities. Considering that there will be trade and interaction between local communities (especially because of the global environment we live in), I think there is even a less of a desire for local communities to engage in reckless behavior and aggression within its own community and against other communities, because the decision to put their lives at risk and their resources in jeopardy comes from the individuals themselves, not some “elected representatives” and leaders of nation states who probably share little to no connection to that particular community and really aren’t working for the interests of that community. (Though, this would probably hold less weight for current factions with local communities that hold certain religious and national sentiments within some regions of the world).

Thus, the real difference between what we have now and local communities lies with who controls me and who controls my resources. I see it as more of autonomous and independent control of the community. Yet, it does not mean that the communities would not choose to create larger bodies for certain reasons, as alluded to in the previous paragraph. And it may be that this could completely fail and we come back to federal systems (or global systems) that we have today. Yet, it’s never been truly implemented on any sort of wide-scale initiative with direct democracy as its foundation, though the New England states in US are coming really close. Several local communities there have their own currency and overwhelming civic participation. And they are vibrant and economically well-off towns.

Europe is in some ways better prepared than the US to make such a transition. For example, Europe has not experience the sprawl (well, some regions have) that American has seen. The suburbs of America are primarily residential zones where one does not work in his community or the community next to him. European towns tend to have multiple mixed uses in a much smaller geographic area so that people live where they work and play. And in the areas that are somewhat similar to the US with regards to sprawl, public transportation infrastructure is decades ahead of many American metropolises. In the USA, the transition to such a strong emphasis on local communities would take a much bigger massive overhaul, as creative planning and zoning would need to be initiated to create viable local communities where none really exist and to encourage development of and transition to communities that already do have a strong local character.

To emphasize, it’s about citizen control and citizen participation, which is lacking from the majority of communities in all countries, democratic or not.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Vicsinad,

I didn’t personally see the series of questions I posed as a bombardment, rather simply a natural succession of questions covering basic fundamentals of such a vision which I would assume would have already been thought through and hence not too difficult to address. I will now however look to progress at a more conservative rate since they may have been overwhelming. Also I’m quite happy for you to take your time to provide the adequate details required when addressing these questions, I’m in no particular rush, plus my availability to post is sometimes limited therefore I would also appreciate your patience in return.

Since this conversation is and will continue to be quite off topic from this actual thread, can I suggest that we maybe create a new thread and move our conversation there?

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

Vicsinad,

I didn’t personally see the series of questions I posed as a bombardment, rather simply a natural succession of questions covering basic fundamentals of such a vision which I would assume would have already been thought through and hence not too difficult to address. I will now however look to progress at a more conservative rate since they may have been overwhelming. Also I’m quite happy for you to take your time to provide the adequate details required when addressing these questions, I’m in no particular rush, plus my availability to post is sometimes limited therefore I would also appreciate your patience in return.

Since this conversation is and will continue to be quite off topic from this actual thread, can I suggest that we maybe create a new thread and move our conversation there?

Thanks for clarifying that. If you would like to create a new thread, I'm not opposed. I don't know how the administrators will feel about that, though.

[George S.]

i asked nice & simple questions & you aren't answewring them yes you are dishonest you have a hidden agenda.To destroy the macedonian nation & state.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Mark Branov ~ Thank you to all (under 300 people) the Macedonian patriots who made this event a night to remember.

Mark, since you seem to be the UMD spokesperson on this page (fb) I would love to know what the UMD thinks of MOST Macedonians that REFUSE to support the UMD .. Unpatriotic Macedonians? RSVP

NOTE: 200,000 Macedonians call Toronto home.

[George S.]

MK they sure as hell don't support the whole diaspora.Also does the UMD work for the Macedonian cause??What would you say to people who self appoint themselves without consulting with anyone.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Originally Posted by George S.

MK they sure as hell don't support the whole diaspora.Also does the UMD work for the Macedonian cause??What would you say to people who self appoint themselves without consulting with anyone.

What, other Macedonian organization does not allow paid members or sponsors to vote? Macedonia2025 aka secret society blue print. (see freemasons)