United Macedonia Diaspora

[vodenka]

The statements and actions of the UMD that we disagree with here are fundamental, they relate to our identity as Macedonians and that is why this issue is at the forefront.

Ok, then you can stay far and away from UMD and not support it.

You, from the other end, support Vinozhito which I desgree with and its politics. Do you know so well how things are on the ground in Egejska (better than me) to be able to have a perfect immage for what you are supporting?

[vodenka]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

My apologies to 'Bratot' and others, I don't mean to divert your discussion with 'Vodenka' but I'd like to ask her a question out of curiosity while she's here actively participating in this thread.

Vodenka, what do you think are the approximate numbers of Macedonian professionals in greece today, do we have a significant number of teachers (i don't mean those teaching Macedonian, rather those in the greek education system), whether they be at primary, secondary or tertiary level, do we have professionals in the medical field for example or in civil service at the various levels of government or successful business operators?

I guess I want to develop a picture of how entrenched the Macedonians have become in modern greece.
From reading much of your posts I get the impression that we're only just starting to find our feet in modern greece but somehow that notion doesn't make any sense at all to me...?

In Greece we are not discriminated as citizens: of course we have lots of Macedonian successful professionals on all the fields and professions. The problems start when these people want to express freely their national identity as Macedonians. At this point starts a defamation activity by local newspapers, blogs, gossips in the local community that is very difficult for someone to handle, alone. Unfortunatelly, there is no organization that would help these people to fight back: if someone is attacked, he is left alone and in many occasions other Macedonians who live far from him never come to know about the troubles someone has. In the past this unofficial "circles" used the term Vulgaros" to describe Macedonians as dangerous persons who work in secret against Greece's interests, now they use the term "Skopianos". The official state remains indiferent and in many occasions supports this kind of behavor by this "circles" (on tv, newspapers, etc) and the Macedonians who are targetted they feel they will never be able to get the support of the state or the justice if they react. That is why we are still so "scared". Fortunatelly, since last year we have some macedonian blogs on internet and we get information first hand and communication. It is really a big help.

[Pavel]

over 4,000 people in greece voted for vino in last election. this is not many. but how many people support you? are all these 4,000 people stupid? you know better than all of them? they are on the ground there too. every where you go on the internet this is what you do. ok you dont like them, but can't you talk about something else sometimes?

[vodenka]

Originally Posted by Pavel

over 4,000 people in greece voted for vino in last election. this is not many. but how many people support you? are all these 4,000 people stupid? you know better than all of them? they are on the ground there too. every where you go on the internet this is what you do. ok you dont like them, but can't you talk about something else sometimes?

I am not a political party so I cannot talk about supporters. After all, why should somebody support me, personally?
If you think that the Macedonians in Egejska are the 2,500 voters of Vinozhito and only them, than you are talking about a lost case.
The Macedonians who are not voters of Vinozhito or supporters are many many thousands, in Egejska and is about them I am talking about.
You, on the contrary, have only Vinozhito to be happy about and do not want to listen of anything else.

[Pavel]

thats not true. i am very happy about the work you do too. i think it is very good. i congratulate you. but we can't ignore vino and their thousands of supporters. this would not be fair. they live in greece too. are you smarter than all of them? are you better than all those 4000? how many thousands support your organisation?

[vodenka]

Originally Posted by Pavel

thats not true. i am very happy about the work you do too. i think it is very good. i congratulate you. but we can't ignore vino and their thousands of supporters. this would not be fair. they live in greece too. are you smarter than all of them? are you better than all those 4000? how many thousands support your organisation?

I am not against Vinozhito as party or as organization or its voters and supporters, in Greece and abroad. Vinozhito was founded by excellent Macedonians activists who in the past paid their support and activity with Vinozhito with painful consequences. It is an historical part of our struggle in Egejska. What I do not like and disagree on is the leadership of the party, the last 15 years. I was a Vinozhito party member myself but I see that the party is not working for our interests: I and many others left the party and we try to organize ourselves as much as we can, hoping to bring our cause forward. I get really upset when people from the Diaspora insist that we should collaborate with Vinozhito leadership. This is impossible as we tried many times to find an agreement with them, but they are negative. We choose to work on the cultural field and let them work on the political one, as they did before. Instead of supporting us even with some encouraging words, we find out that they are exploiting our work in the Diaspora (presenting it as theirs) and now they want to get in the cultural field, in a competitive way with us, by founding a cultural association IN VODEN! I mean, there is no place some were else to do it? Why suddently Voden became so important? what do they think it happened, here?
Now, if we found a new Macedonian political party, what do you think will be their reaction? Of course, we will not do that, because if we do it, we will do more damage than good to our cause.
Anyway, this opinion I express on the forums is taken as attack to the party instead of what it is really: criticism to its leadership. And as you can notice, they never come out on the open to confront me, about my criticism. Why?
I wish them all the best with the new K.P.Misirkov foundation (when they will found it or start activies with it). I really hope they succeed as their success is Macedonians' success. We will continue our work, anyway.

[Pavel]

i am glad you wish the misirkov the best. they never said you don't do language classes. everyone knows you are doing good work with the classes.

But you are the negative one. we have only ever seen you be negative toward them. this is a fact. nearly all the time. if others can hold language classes this is good too. how many thousands support your organisation?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by vodenka

In Greece we are not discriminated as citizens: of course we have lots of Macedonian successful professionals on all the fields and professions. The problems start when these people want to express freely their national identity as Macedonians. At this point starts a defamation activity by local newspapers, blogs, gossips in the local community that is very difficult for someone to handle, alone. Unfortunatelly, there is no organization that would help these people to fight back: if someone is attacked, he is left alone and in many occasions other Macedonians who live far from him never come to know about the troubles someone has. In the past this unofficial "circles" used the term Vulgaros" to describe Macedonians as dangerous persons who work in secret against Greece's interests, now they use the term "Skopianos". The official state remains indiferent and in many occasions supports this kind of behavor by this "circles" (on tv, newspapers, etc) and the Macedonians who are targetted they feel they will never be able to get the support of the state or the justice if they react. That is why we are still so "scared". Fortunatelly, since last year we have some macedonian blogs on internet and we get information first hand and communication. It is really a big help.

Vodenka, I wasn't asking for a description of the intimidation process, I would like to get an understanding of how entrenched Macedonians are in professional life and in administrative positions in modern greece...

For example, do we have Macedonians in local government or senior positions in the public service...?

[vodenka]

For example, do we have Macedonians in local government or senior positions in the public service...?

Yes. For example Petre Dimtsis was elected in the Lerin prefecture as Counselor, at local elections, several years ago. He is also a professor in public highschool in Leriri. Pavle Voskopoulos works as engeneer for the local state prefecture in Lerin.
They are also many other Macedonians who work in public services and senior positions, too.

[Rogi]

Phoenix, there are quite a few. In fact, some are at the highest positions in some of Greece's largest companies. That of course only lasts if they continue to keep quiet about being Macedonian.

But if you are asking about Grkomani, there are so many of them, including in Government.