United Macedonia Diaspora

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by gore na nitche

Jas som ot Australia

Dobrodoide.

There were better ways to make an entry mate, perhaps next time you should read through the recent topics to get an understanding of the situation and surrounding circumstances and sentiment. Making an entrance in that manner lacks maturity, I trust, among madinata and your other natural gifts, you also possess some logic and intelligence. Makedoncite od tvojot krai se poznati i za toa.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Actually, UMD has made numerous contacts with AMHRC through e-mail over the last few days over this matter. The journalist at the Advertiser was made aware of AMHRC's letter, and few other media outlets we had communication with these last few days. The coordination is headed by the Macedonian Community of Adelaide and South Australia, and they are working closely with AMHRC and UMD over this matter. We are all here to help, not steal anyone's spotlight.

AMHRC is doing a great job, and so are the Macedonian Community of Adelaide and South Australia, which are directly affected by this matter. UMD will continue to help both, should they need our help.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Buktop

You think US recognition persuaded common Macedonians to not vote? The average Macedonian citizen doesn't give a shit what country recognizes them..........

I don't agree with that. Have you asked the average Macedonian citizen if they gave a shit about the USA recognising them in 2004? I was in Macedonia when it happened Buktop, I saw what went on. I saw Macedonians fooled into thinking that everything would improve in Macedonia so long as we had the recognition of the USA. Nishto ne se vide.

.........75% were more concerned with SDS taking their jobs (which is a stupid notion to begin with)

Stupid to whom? The people that stood to lose their jobs? Come on, you're not that ignorant to be unaware of that sort of thing happening in the past, where the political party in power quite often determined if you would have a job the following week. Again, I saw that happening too. I saw hardcore Macedonians keep their mouth's firmly shut because they didn't want to lose their jobs and means of support for their families. That is blackmail, that is an absolute disgrace.

........and the Prime minister Hari Kostov, who threatened to resign, who gives a shit if he would have resigned? Is party allegiance more important than the rights of Macedonians or the territorial integrity of Macedonia?

It had nothing to do with party allegiance and you know it. It was all scare-mongering, to give Macedonians the impression that there would be imminent disasters awaiting should the Macedonians vote in favour of their sovereignty. This is what happens when SDS are in power, they brainwash people with fear and lies. Couple this with USA recognition and threats of ethnic Albanian terrorism. It worked.

The earlier opinion polls showed that the Macedonian people were heavily in favour of the referendum against Macedonia's territorial division, then the above things start happening. Don't blame the people on account of the traitors in their (SDS in this and most cases) leadership.

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I don't agree with that. Have you asked the average Macedonian citizen if they gave a shit about the USA recognising them in 2004? I was in Macedonia when it happened Buktop, I saw what went on. I saw Macedonians fooled into thinking that everything would improve in Macedonia so long as we had the recognition of the USA. Nishto ne se vide.

Stupid to whom? The people that stood to lose their jobs? Come on, you're not that ignorant to be unaware of that sort of thing happening in the past, where the political party in power quite often determined if you would have a job the following week. Again, I saw that happening too. I saw hardcore Macedonians keep their mouth's firmly shut because they didn't want to lose their jobs and means of support for their families. That is blackmail, that is an absolute disgrace.

It had nothing to do with party allegiance and you know it. It was all scare-mongering, to give Macedonians the impression that there would be imminent disasters awaiting should the Macedonians vote in favour of their sovereignty. This is what happens when SDS are in power, they brainwash people with fear and lies. Couple this with USA recognition and threats of ethnic Albanian terrorism. It worked.

The earlier opinion polls showed that the Macedonian people were heavily in favour of the referendum against Macedonia's territorial division, then the above things start happening. Don't blame the people on account of the traitors in their (SDS in this and most cases) leadership.

And Branko seems to be preparing something again.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

You are implying that Obama has more executive control over the US administration than Meto has over the UMD, but the facts simply don't support such an assertion. You are implying that what Meto says himself (as the president) does not equate to the policy of the UMD. You don't honestly believe that, do you? You don't find anything wrong with that picture?

You are basically giving Meto a licence to say and do whatever he feels, and that the UMD should be immune from criticism as a result. The president of the UMD calls for a 'democratic' prefix, but this is not allowed to be tied into the official policy of the UMD, is that it? That doesn't strike you as odd? Can you tell me where integrity and consistency fit into all of this? Sorry mate, no way, I can't accept your suggestion. If Meto can't stop saying the wrong thing, then for the sake of his organisation he should either step down or shut up.

I think the earlier comparison I made with Obama and Biden is more than valid, you can't have a leader saying one thing and his organisation claiming another, and not be questioned about your integrity. Can you show me another example of something like this where the population or membership agree with what you are saying, namely, that they accept the president of their group makes statements that apparently contradict the group's policies and are not in synch with the population or membership? A few parallels would strengthen your argument somewhat.

If you watched the Adelaide video, Meto expressly states, it was his own personal opinion to be in favor of the Democratic prefix at the time, not the policy of UMD.

What Meto proposes has to be approved by all board members of UMD, or maybe Rogi can shed some light as to the decision making of UMD boards. Either way, a single board member does not have the power to change policy single handed.

My problem is not about criticizing Meto's or other board members' statements, it is about confusing personal opinion with UMD policy. I don't agree with some of their statements either, but I wont discredit the entire organization for it.

Originally Posted by Rogi

I say this in general, and in principle, and I'm sure all agree:

Anyone is entitled to their own personal opinion.

However, you must consider in what capacity any statement is made. Is it as a representative of an organisation, is it in the name of the organisation, is it at an event of and/or for the organisation, is it to people questioning the organisation, or is it in a personal private conversation.

I agree

Originally Posted by Rogi

Secondly, the personal opinion of the head does reflect back on the organisation itself in that, it beckons the question why an organisation would keep at its' head someone so diametrically opposed to its' policy, if indeed there is such a disparity. So any organisation is automatically implicated by the personal or otherwise statements and views of its' head.

I do agree here but you can't argue that transference of criticism from a board member to the whole organization is justified, especially when the actions of the organization seem to indicate otherwise.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Jankovska

Don't take that tone with me young man. Macedonia was given to the albanians because the United States of America and the EU gave it to them, not you or me. Orders were given and had to be followed. I do blame Trajkovski and the gov but not the people, everyone went to fight in 2001, but you can not send soldiers to fight but not giving them the right to attack or defend themselves. The West caused it and our gov betrayed us in every way, but whatever you do, stay away from judging the people.
I didn't vote because I was in the UK. My parents wanted to vote but the voting room in the gimnazija was shut. You go and explain to me why?
I will not allow anyone here to bash at the Macedonian people, especially if you don't live in Macedonia. Leve them the hell alone, if you not gonna help them stop blaiming them for everything. Afterall if they all moved away like we did Macedonia would be long gone.
Buktop the Serbs fought for kosovo, did they get to keep it?

This has nothing to do with anything that you just said, it is about the referendum that would have reversed the restructuring of districts in favor of Albanians. 75% of Macedonians not voting is unacceptable. And according to Indigen's belief's those who didn't vote actually endorse the giving of land to Albanians and are traitors. I am not actually of the opinion that we should hang everyone, I was having a go at Indigen with those comments.

So they shut the gimnazija? Well why didn't anyone in Kriva Palanka go to to the mayors office to complain? Why not go to the next town over and go to their voting station? I mean whats a few kilometers when your sovereignty is at stake?

I have every right to bash those who didn't vote and those who discouraged them from voting, I am a citizen of Macedonia, don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot do.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

If that's your view, why do you think the UMD leadership in the US feels a need to constantly stress that the USA is Macedonia's "best friend"?

In terms of support for EU/NATO, and Military cooperation, ties with the USA do hold some benefits. I would not advocate an all out alliance or subservience to US foreign policy, but certain aspects are beneficial.

[amitreski]

This is just another attempt to discredit UMD. UMD has in no way supported the UCK, and other gibberish said in this thread.

[amitreski]

Tom

I do not recognize the person that was part of UMD for several years. UMD not only is against that acronym but we have tried to avoid it as much as we can.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I don't agree with that. Have you asked the average Macedonian citizen if they gave a shit about the USA recognising them in 2004? I was in Macedonia when it happened Buktop, I saw what went on. I saw Macedonians fooled into thinking that everything would improve in Macedonia so long as we had the recognition of the USA. Nishto ne se vide.

I was there too, the people of Struga sure as hell didn't give a shit about US recognition.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Stupid to whom? The people that stood to lose their jobs? Come on, you're not that ignorant to be unaware of that sort of thing happening in the past, where the political party in power quite often determined if you would have a job the following week. Again, I saw that happening too. I saw hardcore Macedonians keep their mouth's firmly shut because they didn't want to lose their jobs and means of support for their families. That is blackmail, that is an absolute disgrace.

Do you really think that SDS would be able to take away the jobs of everyone in the country? If so, SDS would lose all power in the government and outright chaos would ensue, SDS wouldn't have lasted in government 6 hours if they actually decided to go through with that sort of policy. Once again, this is proof of a collective subservience of the citizens in Macedonia.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

It had nothing to do with party allegiance and you know it. It was all scare-mongering, to give Macedonians the impression that there would be imminent disasters awaiting should the Macedonians vote in favour of their sovereignty. This is what happens when SDS are in power, they brainwash people with fear and lies. Couple this with USA recognition and threats of ethnic Albanian terrorism. It worked.

The Macedonians in the West of the country obviously didn't care about scaremongering, they were more concerned with whether terrorists would be allowed to take over their homes. Compared to that, the rest of the country had nothing to fear. We need to stop making excuses for the citizens in Macedonia.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The earlier opinion polls showed that the Macedonian people were heavily in favour of the referendum against Macedonia's territorial division, then the above things start happening. Don't blame the people on account of the traitors in their (SDS in this and most cases) leadership.

If your leaders started to tell you to forget about the sovereignty of your country or we are going to take your job, would you listen? It is not possible for a government to take away the jobs of over 50% of the country, and those who believed this lie obviously care very little for the plight of the Macedonians in the West of the country, who ACTUALLY lost their jobs and their dignity at the hands of the Albanians and those who chose indifference.