United Macedonia Diaspora

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Prolet

SOM, If we where forced to change our name, we are not forced im sure you would answer the question too if you where forced to make a choice.

Back then SOM we where in Limbo, we didnt know if we would exist as a country i've never pushed for a name change and im not planning on pushing now, i've made myself clear on that. Its a pointless discussion because the Greeks would never accept it, why are we arguing for?? We know what the Greeks are like and we have a tough fight on our hands.

Meto is not the problem here, we need an organization like the UMD that will promote our country and gain support for us in the Diaspora. Weather its the UMD or somebody else we need somebody, we dont have a choice the Greeks are paying over a hundred Million Dollars to wipe us out how do we defend ourselves?

Prolet, the problem is guys like Meto and everybody who thinks there's a possible solution by validating the negotiation process. This problem wouldn't exist if everybody refused outright to negotiate our identity, instead we have Meto advocating triple name formulas, we have idiots that agree to these negotiations, we have corrupt politicians who are proposing name changes and spreading lies...

This negotiation process has been in motion for almost 2 decades, the greeks have nothing to lose by participating whilst each day that we're involved another one or two people drop off and are willing to accept whatever is thrown in their direction...the weak are slowly being eroded away

[Prolet]

We cannot be forced and especially not 'forced to choose' (that's not a choice). If they could force us, they would have.

Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Back then SOM we where in Limbo, we didnt know if we would exist as a country......

Again, the same thing with you. Vangelovski was right, you're exactly like a rollercoaster. You are making the excuse that because we were "in limbo" we should have just settled for something other than our name. What do you mean we didn't know if we would exist as a country? You're scare-mongering like those that you claim to despise, enough with your defeatist attitude, it's pathetic. You don't need to tell me what state Macedonia was in during that time, a name change could never be justified or accepted by most Macedonians barring those like Meto and, unfortunately, you it would seem. Thank God you're not in politics, do sea kizni so ke napraese.

Meto is not the problem here, we need an organization like the UMD that will promote our country and gain support for us in the Diaspora. Weather its the UMD or somebody else we need somebody, we dont have a choice........

There is always a choice, you've chosen capitulation at our weakest moment. Samio ne znais so tropas, Meto is a problem here, and I choose not to support him as a 'leader' of the Macedonian Diaspora.

You seem to find no problem with the UMD sponsoring some schooling program for Macedonians on the one hand while talking about name changes on the other, that is your choice. Me, I commend much of their work, but their influence where it concerns Macedonian policies should be remain minimal.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.

You are making irrelevant comparisons to 'justify' a defeatist attitude.

Macedonia will not be bombed for refusing to accept a name change.

No Macedonian will go to the Hague for refusing to accept a name change.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.

Prolet, if that was the case the Ohrid Accord probably would have had a clause to initiate a name change as well, to go with the other losses of sovereignty that it stipulated...

This name 'game' is a battle of least resistance...if the Macedonians are percieved as being weak the pressure will fall on us to abandon our identity...if we remain unmoving nobody can touch us because it really isn't anyones problem...unfortunately too many idiots on 'our' side give the silly process a degree of credibility by entertaining somebody elses stupidity...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Way too many, but in the bigger picture they aren't that many, and they are steadily being weeded out, for all Macedonians to see....

[Prolet]

What is the purpose of the existence of an independent Republic of Macedonia?

On 8th of September 1991 in a referendum 86% of our citizens decided for our country to break away from the then Yugoslavia. We are a democratic country with a democratic government, the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens.

We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.

[Rogi]

the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens

That is where we differ. Where I would have said

The purpose of Macedonia's existence is to be the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people and the guardian of the Macedonian name, identity, language culture and history, as well as provide a prosperous life for the Macedonian people AND it's citizens

I asked what is the purpose of the existence of the Republic of Macedonia, not a generic question about the existence of any state, but rather whether there is an ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia.

If there is no such ideological purpose to Macedonia's existence, then for those with such views, it makes no difference if Macedonia exists or not, they are indifferent to whether they are citizens of Macedonia or citizens of any country, because they view the state based around citizenship, not the Macedonian people.

Whereas, if you view is that there is an ideological purpose to the existence of the Republic of Macedonia as the home and guardian of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity, then you would understand why there is no such thing as being 'forced to choose' and changing the name, because that goes against the very ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia. It is Macedonia, or nothing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Prolet

We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.

Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.

[Prolet]

SOM, Did we change our name yes or no?? we didnt do it then and i never pushed for a name change ever. We where lied to by our own people, we have Kiro Gligorov as a president calling us SLavs for gods sake its easy to talk now but back then things where different.

SOM, I advise you to have a chat with Gruevski or anybody close to him and see if you can get the real picture. The whole democratic chat is pointless because it will never be accepted from the other side even if every single one of us agreed to it.

Phoenix, I gave the Ohrid Accord as an example to how we were forced to sign it, the name change is a different kettle of fish all together. No country would go through all that trouble to force us to change our name just because Greece doesnt like it, so no name change.