United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Buktop

Yet you still could not maneuver your way around the fact that the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia is flawed and it's clauses are used by the Government to allow them to negotiate.

Your attacks on me are nothing more than a cop out to avoid actual discussion.

My discussion re the constitution has moved on with Dzog, who is capable of having an intelligent one.

You on the other hand, were arguing against republican theory, then when Dzog said he agreed with what I said, you jumped in and claimed that you agreed as well. Maybe you should work out what exactly you agree with, rather than jumping from one end of the spectrum to the other. If, however, you're not sure about what you agree with, maybe you should leave it to Dzog to do the thinking for you.

And no Buktop, this does not mean that I concede to Dzog's arguements. It means Dzog, unlike you, thinks before he posts.

If you want your answer to the article 8 question, maybe you should read my last post to Dzog.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

My discussion re the constitution has moved on with Dzog, who is capable of having an intelligent one.

You on the other hand, were arguing against republican theory, then when Dzog said he agreed with what I said, you jumped in and claimed that you agreed as well. Maybe you should work out what exactly you agree with, rather than jumping from one end of the spectrum to the other. If, however, you're not sure about what you agree with, maybe you should leave it to Dzog to do the thinking for you.

And no Buktop, this does not mean that I concede to Dzog's arguements. It means Dzog thinks before he posts.

I never denied your comments on the theories, I simply argued that the reality differed from the textbook concepts. I would be more than happy to sit back and read the discussion between you and Dzog, I am genuinely interested in your full opinion as well as Dzogs.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Buktop

I never claimed to know everything, if I knew everything I would not be on this forum.

And now you are generalizing North Americans... Didn't you learn something from your debate with Maknews? You are only serving to further segregate the communities...

I have no problem with discussing the issues, but why even bother to post when all he could say is charlatan. What bothers me is that just because my opinion is different than those on this forum, I am a defeatist, I am a poisoner, I am a charlatan, I am an arse licker, I am a traitor, I am an apologist......

I do my best to avoid personal attacks and genuinely am interested in this subject on the constitution. I am passionate about this issue and if there is more to learn I will gladly revise my position. As of yet, Vangelovski has avoided answering my questions in detail and I want to know why? Is it beneficial to the topic to waste a post and call me names rather than just simply answer a question?

I am genuinely concerned that the constitution of Macedonia gives the government so much power. And I feel that people should know about it so that we can change it and prevent the government from compromising our identities again.

Buktop, you seriously need to consider why so many diverse individuals are calling you those names and excluding me there's some very intelligent guys calling you those names...

Don't fool yourself thinking you understand constitutional law or are in any way qualified to debate the subject...

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Buktop

I never denied your comments on the theories, I simply argued that the reality differed from the textbook concepts.

You denied them until you turned black and blue and they're here for everyone to read.

The reality differs from the textbook concepts...hmmm...are you saying that the constitution and fundamental concepts needed for its interpretation and used by say, the US Supreme Court, are comletely ignored and its all just made up along the way. Or perhaps you consider Supreme Court decisions "theory" and not "reality"?

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

You denied them until you turned black and blue and they're here for everyone to read.

The reality differs from the textbook concepts...hmmm...are you saying that the constitution and fundamental concepts needed for its interpretation and used by say, the US Supreme Court, are comletely ignored and its all just made up along the way. Or perhaps you consider Supreme Court decisions "theory" and not "reality"?

How do you justify the patriot act? Is it in accordance with the constitution of the United States?Are authorization of indefinite detentions of immigrants; searches through which law enforcement officers search a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge; the expanded use of National Security Letters, which allows the FBI to search telephone, e-mail, and financial records without a court order; and the expanded access of law enforcement agencies to business records, including library and financial records in accordance with the US Constitution?

Listen, I want to have a simple discussion concerning your interpretation of the situation with the constitution of Macedonia, and the articles pointed out by Rogi and Dzog. In the other thread my statements were not different than those articles that were pointed out and instead of sticking to substance we resorted to personal attacks.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Buktop

Listen, I want to have a simple discussion concerning your interpretation of the situation with the constitution of Macedonia, and the articles pointed out by Rogi and Dzog. In the other thread my statements were not different than those articles that were pointed out and instead of sticking to substance we resorted to personal attacks.

You're doin alot of back peddling Buktop...you just can't be taken seriously...

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You're doin alot of back peddling Buktop...you just can't be taken seriously...

Are you planning on adding anything of substance? This is exactly what I am talking about, the simple fact that I post bothers you, care to address the military or economic situation of Macedonia? Care to address the government situation in Macedonia? Or are you simply here as a cheerleader?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Buktop

Why don't you tell me why 75% of Macedonians didn't vote in the referendum?

I will tell you, although I am sure you are already aware of the answers.

1) The Macedonian Government was in the control of SDS at the time, who practically blackmailed the working classes into not voting with their dirty scare tactics.

2) The SDS PM at the time, Hari Kostov, a disgraceful traitor to Macedonia, threatened to quit his position should the referendum be successful.

3) State-sponsored media controlled by SDS also used fear mongering and warned of a repeated ethnic Albanian aggression against the Macedonian state.

4) The EU and USA urged the Macedonians to boycott the referendum, arguing that their country will experience further difficulties in its aspirations of joining the EU and NATO.

This was our chance, the people's chance, to say NO to the territorial division and redrawing of borders for Macedonia. Look at the lengths that some went to, in order to bully the Macedonian people into a submissive position - a position, that was later fueled by a false sense of belief in America's respect for the Macedonians.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...7-357b8ba0.htm

Prime Minister Kostov, the European Union and the United States have urged Macedonians to boycott the referendum. Voter turnout must reach at least 50-percent for the referendum to be declared valid.

Surveys by the Institute for Democracy, Solidarity and a Civil Society showed support for the referendum has fallen to 56-percent, down from 65-percent two-weeks earlier.

I think 50% was not only possible, but quite pobable. And what happens then? Only a few days prior to the referendum, the US, in their desperation to keep Macedonian assertiveness subdued, announce their recognition of the name 'Republic of Macedonia'.

Buktop, this means the price that Macedonia paid for recognition from the USA was the sovereignty of its statehood, do you agree?

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I will tell you, although I am sure you are already aware of the answers.

1) The Macedonian Government was in the control of SDS at the time, who practically blackmailed the working classes into not voting with their dirty scare tactics.

2) The SDS PM at the time, Hari Kostov, a disgraceful traitor to Macedonia, threatened to quit his position should the referendum be successful.

3) State-sponsored media controlled by SDS also used fear mongering and warned of a repeated ethnic Albanian aggression against the Macedonian state.

4) The EU and USA urged the Macedonians to boycott the referendum, arguing that their country will experience further difficulties in its aspirations of joining the EU and NATO.

This was our chance, the people's chance, to say NO to the territorial division and redrawing of borders for Macedonia. Look at the lengths that some went to, in order to bully the Macedonian people into a submissive position - a position, that was later fueled by a false sense of belief in America's respect for the Macedonians.

I think 50% was not only possible, but quite pobable. And what happens then? Only a few days prior to the referendum, the US, in their desperation to keep Macedonian assertiveness subdued, announce their recognition of the name 'Republic of Macedonia'.

Buktop, this means the price that Macedonia paid for recognition from the USA was the sovereignty of its statehood, do you agree?

Thank you SoM, I am glad someone understands what was happening.

The key that we need to understand here, as I pointed out in one of my previous posts in this thread, is the indifference (forced or willing) of the citizens in concern to actions by the government. I cannot stress enough the significance of the mindset of the citizens and their general apathy in regards to assuming their rights as citizens. Any threats by the government against the citizens should be seen as a direct violation of mandate and high treason.

50% was more than probable, it was a guarantee up until Buckovski and Kostov decided to blackmail the citizens and make empty promises that any reasonably intelligent person could see were impossible to accomplish.

I do recall US and European representatives urging the redrawing of municipalities, even though it was stated that territorial integrity would not be disturbed, it was a direct effort to finalize the federalization of the Albanian controlled areas as envisioned in the Ohrid framework.

I'm not exactly sure as to the reason why we were recognized by the United States, though that is a big coincidence that it occurred so near to the referendum.

Macedonia definitely paid with sovereignty, but the only people we can blame are ourselves for letting it happen when we had a perfect opportunity to stop it. Governments should fear their citizens, the citizens shouldn't fear their governments.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Buktop

At one time I did

The "one time" is in fact a number of times. It happened all over this forum. You hinted very heavily and in fact stated that you accept FYROM for the purposes of entry into EU/NATO.

I always find myself having to go back to find what you said earlier to remind you of what you said. I find I rarely have to do this with other people. They tend to know what they have said. This is what makes dialogue with you so frustrating.

I guess it is good that you have an opinion, but I don't enjoy the fact that you can't stick to one opinion.

Originally Posted by Buktop

These avenues of overthrowing the shackles of these two agreements take time, and I did at one point feel that it would be better to join EU/NATO under fyrom so that once we re-assume our constitutional name we would not be stuck on the outside and subject to the whims of Greece concerning our entry. I fail to see how this is advocating further capitulation considering we are already stuck using the fyrom acronym on an international level. And to repeat myself once again, I do not support a name change of any kind.

What point precisely did you feel it was not a good idea to join EU/NATO under FYROM? Because it still sounds like you have left the backdoor open to let that silly (former) idea of yours back in. Do you disagree? Or have you banished this foolish thought completely? Please be clear and honest with yourself. It seems difficult for you. If you simply said what you believe in a clear and precise way, everybody would understand where you come from and slot you into a particular corner. But instead you have ducked and weaved in such an infuriating manner that many are flabbergasted with your intent.

Originally Posted by Buktop

So I asked you to provide me with proof of where I advocated joining NATO/EU at any cost, and you have failed to do so.

You have simply proven that we can't get a straight answer out of you. Let me dumb it down for you:

Originally Posted by Buktop without the big words

"I used to think it was a good idea to join NATO/EU under FYROM. Especially since bad things will happen to us if we don't. And we already use that name anyway. So what is the problem if we do anyway. It does not show we are weak, we can make it better later on."

But I like Americans. Tell me once and for all you have changed your mind and that you have the self-respect of a good Macedonian who will not accept entry into EU/NATO under FYROM. Please.

Don't forget, it was the Diaspora who created Greece 180 years ago. Not the poor peasant victims within Greece. Surely we Macedonians in the Diaspora should lead by example.