United Macedonia Diaspora - Page 129

Buktop · 01-14-2010, 05:29 AM

I hope all you "constructive criticizers" will be attending. I would hate for your valuable input to be missed. If it is at all possible to record any of the meetings I would be very interested in viewing them.

Buktop · 01-14-2010, 06:44 AM

Who else but the founders would compose the first board of UMD? Are you that ignorant? Here maybe you'll understand this... (doubtful)

Oh so you knew that the bylaws included elections after 3 years? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part?

Did you forget to answer these questions?

Vangelovski · 01-14-2010, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buktop

I never denied that the point of the constitution was to restrict the power of the government, what we are arguing about here is if it is not prohibited by the constitution it is within the power of the parliament. If we were to go by what you say, and that all the power the parliament has must be expressly stated within the constitution, 90% of all laws that exist would not be legal. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

There are ambiguities left in the constitution to allow for innovation.

You still have yet to quote me the relevant articles of the constitution which expressly prohibit the actions taken by the parliament.

Just because you quote some legal "theories" doesn't mean that you are quoting legal practice and does not make your allegations legitimate. If you have a problem with the wording of the Macedonian constitution take it up with the government, don't blame me for it.

Buktop,

You still don't get it do you? The Government/Parliament only has authority to deal with the issues specifically listed in the Constitution and NOTHING ELSE FULLSTOP.

A constitution is an agreement among the people (CITIZENS) to CONSTITUTE a government and provide it with a very specific and limited list of duties and the authority to carry out those duties ONLY.

A constitution is of the people, by the people, for the people. No government/parliament has the authority to negotiate a change to the constitution, especially with a foreign government!!!!! The PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN.

You keep turning the principle around and perverting it from its natural state. I still can't believe that you don't get it, after how many times I've explained it you, after how many times I've dumbed it down for you and after all the links that I provided to you!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Whats worse, you're apparantly a citizen of the oldest republic in existence whose very founding fathers relied on the very principles I'm writing about and whose ideas and arguments I just posted for you!?!?!?!?!?

I know some of them use big words, but please, look them up for their meaning.

Vangelovski · 01-14-2010, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buktop

Who else but the founders would compose the first board of UMD? Are you that ignorant? Here maybe you'll understand this... (doubtful)

Oh so you knew that the bylaws included elections after 3 years? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part?

Did you forget to answer these questions?

Buktop, Do you have some sort of cognitive disability? I don't want to use harsh words with you if thats the case.

UMD was founded in 2004. The founders had ample time to organise elections by 2008 when they finally decided to adopt by-laws. Instead, they went ahead and APPOINTED THEMSELVES. By the time UMD holds elections (and that remains to be seen) it will have been in existence for 7 YEARS! Thats nearly two terms for an American President without any democratic process.

Vangelovski · 01-14-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buktop

You are a fraud, who is looking to attack my character rather than the substance of my arguments because you have nothing else to use against me.

What was the exact date of your resignation from UMD? Why can't you answer this question? Is this sensitive information?

Charlatan,

What "subtance" do you have to your "arguments". You pretend to know more than you do and provide the most ridiculuous assertions I've read - you're nothing more that a Charlatan. Why don't you run YOUR theories past someone authoritative and see what they think of them. Email a uni professor or ask you primary school teacher. It would save you a lot of embarrassment on here...oh thats right, you don't have to worry about that cause you're hiding behind your fake identity - a true activist!

My exact date of my resignation? Why? I'd have to trawel through thousands of emails just for you - Why would I do that?

Buktop · 01-14-2010, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Buktop,

You still don't get it do you? The Government/Parliament only has authority to deal with the issues specifically listed in the Constitution and NOTHING ELSE FULLSTOP.

A constitution is an agreement among the people (CITIZENS) to CONSTITUTE a government and provide it with a very specific and limited list of duties and the authority to carry out those duties ONLY.

A constitution is of the people, by the people, for the people. No government/parliament has the authority to negotiate a change to the constitution, especially with a foreign government!!!!! The PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN.

You keep turning the principle around and perverting it from its natural state. I still can't believe that you don't get it, after how many times I've explained it you, after how many times I've dumbed it down for you and after all the links that I provided to you!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Whats worse, you're apparantly a citizen of the oldest republic in existence whose very founding fathers relied on the very principles I'm writing about and whose ideas and arguments I just posted for you!?!?!?!?!?

I know some of them use big words, but please, look them up for their meaning.

You are either playing dumb or you actually are...

A constitution outlines the powers bestowed upon the government and the limits of those powers, IN MACEDONIA, PARLIAMENTARIANS ARE GIVEN THE POWER TO ACT ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT ELECTED THEM... THE CONSTITUTION AFFIRMS THIS... and to say that any action not included in the constitution is above and beyond the mandate of the government is simply idiotic. Do you really want me to run your logic by some lawyers, because I will gladly have them contact you if you want some confirmation that you are clinically insane.

The constitution of the Republic of Macedonia provides the authority for the parliament of Macedonia to act on behalf of the citizens who voted for them...

Vangelovski · 01-14-2010, 07:30 AM

Charlatan,

Here's some more information for you - I know you're an American history "expert" and a "political scientist", so I thought you'd enjoy it.

"Though there are serious difficulties inherent in Austin 's attempt to make sense of "the people's sovereignty," his account does bring out the need to distinguish between two different concepts: sovereignty and government. Roughly speaking, we might define "sovereignty" as the possession of supreme (and possibly unlimited) power and authority over some domain, and "government" as those persons or bodies through whom that sovereignty is exercised. Once some such distinction is drawn, we see immediately that sovereignty might lie somewhere other than with the government. And once this implication is accepted, we can coherently go on to speak of limited government coupled with unlimited sovereignty. Arguably this is what one should say about constitutional democracies where the people's sovereign authority is thought to be unlimited but the government bodies — e.g., the legislature(s) and the courts — through whom that sovereignty is exercised on the people's behalf is constitutionally limited. As Locke held, unlimited sovereignty remains with the people who have the normative power to void the authority of their government (or some part thereof) if it exceeds its constitutional limitations.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/constitutionalism/

When the Constitution was sent to the states for ratification in 1787, many citizens worried that the new national government proposed by the document was a Leviathan in waiting. During the crucial New York ratification debate, James Madison, writing as Publius, sought to allay these fears in the 45th Federalist Paper by emphasizing that adoption of the Constitution would create a government of enumerated, and therefore strictly limited, powers. Madison said: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined... [and] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce...."[1] Federal tax collectors, Madison assured everyone, "will be principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous."...

...The government that emerges from the Constitution, like the Constitution itself, is a created entity--one might even say an act of intelligent design. The act of creation determines the scope of the created entity, which explains why the new government can perform only those acts that its creators have granted it power to perform. The United States government cannot claim, for example, the divine right of kings because it did not have a divine origin. When in 1791 the Tenth Amendment expressly confirmed the principle of enumerated powers by declaring that "[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," it was merely clarifying the principle that was implicit in the Constitution's creation three years earlier.

Gary Lawson
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Thought/fp0023.cfm

Vangelovski · 01-14-2010, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buktop

You are either playing dumb or you actually are...

A constitution outlines the powers bestowed upon the government and the limits of those powers, IN MACEDONIA, PARLIAMENTARIANS ARE GIVEN THE POWER TO ACT ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT ELECTED THEM... THE CONSTITUTION AFFIRMS THIS... and to say that any action not included in the constitution is above and beyond the mandate of the government is simply idiotic. Do you really want me to run your logic by some lawyers, because I will gladly have them contact you if you want some confirmation that you are clinically insane.

The constitution of the Republic of Macedonia provides the authority for the parliament of Macedonia to act on behalf of the citizens who voted for them...

Buktop, you're begining to make me think you're a corrupt Macedonian Government official.

I think you should test your ideas with a lawyer or a professor. See how far your perverted assertions get. But take it to REAL lawyers and professors - not your fake internet buddies.

Republicanism is a radical idea, isn't it? It sure beats despotism, which is what you're talking about.

Buktop · 01-14-2010, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

My exact date of my resignation? Why? I'd have to trawel through thousands of emails just for you - Why would I do that?

Thousands of emails? You don't remember the date you resigned from UMD? I would think that would be a rather significant event for a co-founder? Is this question too sensitive for you? Would you rather we did this via PM? I don't understand why this is such a problem for you?

Rogi · 01-14-2010, 07:35 AM

Vangelovski,
I don't think it is as straight forward as you make it out to be, or as we'd like it to be. The Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia is severely flawed. You can spot flaws and envision scenario's that would highlight a flaw in almost every Article of the Constitution.

Just reading the Macedonian Constitution, you see things like:

Article 2

Quote:

Sovereignty in the Republic of Macedonia derives from the citizens and belongs to the citizens.

Which is what you are saying. But then it goes on to elaborate that with:

Quote:

The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia exercise their authority through democratically elected Representatives, through referendum and through other forms of direct expression.

We also see things like:

Article 8

Quote:

Anything that is not prohibited by the Constitution or by law is permitted in the Republic of Macedonia.

Also, with the most recent posts here, the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia specifically gives the power of Constitutional Amendments to the Parliament.

In Article 68 we have

Quote:

The Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia adopts and changes the Constitution;

which is followed up with

Quote:

A proposal to initiate a change in the Constitution in the Republic of Macedonia may be made by the President of the Republic, by the Government, by at least 30 Representatives, or by 150,000 citizens.

and that is again followed up with Article 131

Quote:

The decision to change the Constitution is made by the Assembly by a two-thirds majority vote of the total number of Representatives. The change in the Constitution is declared by the Assembly.

On a separate note, I have a particular interest in Article 24. It reads:

Quote:

Every citizen has a right to petition state and other public bodies, as well as to receive an answer

I wonder if that gives me the Right, as a citizen, to demand an answer from the Government on whether, ultimately, they will change the name?

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01-14-2010, 05:29 AM	#1281
Buktop Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 934	I hope all you "constructive criticizers" will be attending. I would hate for your valuable input to be missed. If it is at all possible to record any of the meetings I would be very interested in viewing them. Last edited by Buktop; 01-14-2010 at 05:46 AM.

01-14-2010, 07:30 AM	#1287
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Charlatan, Here's some more information for you - I know you're an American history "expert" and a "political scientist", so I thought you'd enjoy it. "Though there are serious difficulties inherent in Austin 's attempt to make sense of "the people's sovereignty," his account does bring out the need to distinguish between two different concepts: sovereignty and government. Roughly speaking, we might define "sovereignty" as the possession of supreme (and possibly unlimited) power and authority over some domain, and "government" as those persons or bodies through whom that sovereignty is exercised. Once some such distinction is drawn, we see immediately that sovereignty might lie somewhere other than with the government. And once this implication is accepted, we can coherently go on to speak of limited government coupled with unlimited sovereignty. Arguably this is what one should say about constitutional democracies where the people's sovereign authority is thought to be unlimited but the government bodies — e.g., the legislature(s) and the courts — through whom that sovereignty is exercised on the people's behalf is constitutionally limited. As Locke held, unlimited sovereignty remains with the people who have the normative power to void the authority of their government (or some part thereof) if it exceeds its constitutional limitations. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/constitutionalism/ When the Constitution was sent to the states for ratification in 1787, many citizens worried that the new national government proposed by the document was a Leviathan in waiting. During the crucial New York ratification debate, James Madison, writing as Publius, sought to allay these fears in the 45th Federalist Paper by emphasizing that adoption of the Constitution would create a government of enumerated, and therefore strictly limited, powers. Madison said: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined... [and] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce...."[1] Federal tax collectors, Madison assured everyone, "will be principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous."... ...The government that emerges from the Constitution, like the Constitution itself, is a created entity--one might even say an act of intelligent design. *The act of creation determines the scope of the created entity, which explains why the new government can perform only* those acts that its creators have granted it power to perform. The United States government cannot claim, for example, the divine right of kings because it did not have a divine origin. When in 1791 the Tenth Amendment expressly confirmed the principle of enumerated powers by declaring that "[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," it was merely clarifying the principle that was implicit in the Constitution's creation three years earlier. Gary Lawson http://www.heritage.org/Research/Thought/fp0023.cfm __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams**

01-14-2010, 06:44 AM	#1282
Buktop Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 934	Who else but the founders would compose the first board of UMD? Are you that ignorant? Here maybe you'll understand this... (doubtful) Oh so you knew that the bylaws included elections after 3 years? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part? Did you forget to answer these questions?

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