Macedonia - Where to Now?

[Risto the Great]

The divide between Diaspora and nation is typical. Even for Chinese, Greeks, Albanians, Serbs etc.

The difference is all the others actually have a homeland. Macedonia does not qualify for this in my mind.

[ramo]

Ramo, it is people like you within RoM that are so typical of the woe is me slave mentality. Only Macedonians in Macedonia HATE their disapora so much - you are a bunch of elitist wannabes, you cry woe is me at the drop of a hat, expect our money and handouts and insult us at every tiurn. And is the disgust I feel as a Macedonian how our diaspora gets so divided by its own people.

You see buddy, I have EVERY right to be involved you are playing with MY MACEDONIAN name - how about abusing the farking shit out of ALbanians you disgraceful pathetic piece of garbage, you are not worthy of having the name Macedonian, I am not sucking up to heroes like YOU who are so BIG and ALMIGHTY in denigrating MACEDONIANS - hey heres a thought energy spent in your hatred go and shove it up a shiptar or greek - and embreace your diaspora helping you, you pathetic idiot instead of denigrating your own people.

Nobody wants the diaspora money. Stop talking shit. The only right you have is to bark on forum and cry like babies. You can not decide for my future also i can not decide for your future. Nobody hates the Macedonian diaspora. They have done many things about promoting Macedonia, defending the Macedonian cause, providing certain amount of help.... But you can not decide for me, it is simple as that. You have chosen your country and if you want you can help on your way to Macedonia. It would be better if you react in the international community to make pressure of the facist greece instead calling traitor everyone who takes bulgarian passport because it is the only way of his family not starving. I am sure that significantly less of you would have reacted in that manner if serbian passports were taken for the same purpose instead bulgarian.

[Risto the Great]

I am sure that significantly less of you would have reacted in that manner if serbian passports were taken for the same purpose instead bulgarian.

Don't include me with that one.
But I rank the passport matter far lower than than the daily capitulations accepted by Macedonians in RoM.

[julie]

ramo, and why are you barking like a dog on this forum and polluting the thread with your hatred. Serb, Bulgar, Grk - they are all shit to me, noticed you have nothing to say against the shiptars - seriously, dont get me started, this thread is not about that, you are crying like a baby - how typically hypocritical of you - go fight the Macedonian cause for the Macedonians in Macedonia, but DONT get involved??? - if you want that fight then you need to declare 2 treasonous agreements null and void RoMacedonians willingly accept the IA and FA - so how about taking your anger elsewhere, and doing something PRO ACTIVE with it instead - and as for my barking, well am sure your wife does that a lot better

[Vangelovski]

Ramo, we're he to help, but don't think that we will accept disengenious arguments from pathetic individuals who want to sell OUR identity and human rights for THEIR OWN personal benefit. Collectively, we've been dealing with fools such as yourself for decades. Don't think you're some sort of genius who has come on here and taken the Gligorovist "you don't live here leave us alone" line. Further, don't think that everyone in Macedonia actually holds that view because they don't.

Focus on the substance of the thread or don't post at all. You've already taken this thread off track.

[Gocka]

I also noticed how he hasn't said one word about the shiptari. Also why the fuck would it make a difference if the passport was serbian or bulgarian. That line alone in my opinion is ban worthy.

Insisting that the only way to get by is to take the bulgarian identity, this is one of the lowest things anyone has come here and said, and I personally can not stand pure and utter bullshit like that. I have family members who work their asses off to make a living and they never once though about doing such a treacherous thing, the only person I know personally who became a bulgarian was a cousin of my mothers, and he was a convicted drug smuggler,and now no one in our entire family speaks to him anymore. No honest and decent person would do such a thing. Only a selfish piece of shit.

They used to kill our country men at will not even a hundred years ago, to this day they deny our existence and insist we are bulgars, the bravest people in our history died in order to get away form those people, and today you are just going to willingly help them fufill thier agenda just because you are too fucking lazy to work with your hands.

The albanians can do it, they all live in mini castles and drive nice cars and own many businesses.

So Fuck you and your bullshit excuses, we will one day succeed, and little weasels like you will thank us one day. Now go get the fuck out of here and stop polluting our conversation.

[ramo]

I won't post in this topic again. I want to tell only few more things. There are tens of thousands Macedonians that have bulgarian passports and most of them are decent ones not scumbags like many diaspora guys. There are also tens of thousands of Macedonians with other passports that are also decent macedonians who love their country without the need to say bullshit like "you only want our money". Nobody in Macedonia will thank such retarded person that think they have the right to decide our future and way of living. Continue with your discussions, i wish many "bright" topics like this.

P.S. "sorry" for not cursing our neighbours greeks, serbs, bulgarians, albanians as much as you do.

[Gocka]

I won't post in this topic again. I want to tell only few more things. There are tens of thousands Macedonians that have bulgarian passports and most of them are decent ones not scumbags like many diaspora guys. There are also tens of thousands of Macedonians with other passports that are also decent macedonians who love their country without the need to say bullshit like "you only want our money". Nobody in Macedonia will thank such retarded person that think they have the right to decide our future and way of living. Continue with your discussions, i wish many "bright" topics like this.

P.S. "sorry" for not cursing our neighbours greeks, serbs, bulgarians, albanians as much as you do.

Slusaj, tolku e tesko da vidis deka, kako Makedonci deka ne bolit, toa so go gledame vo Makedonija? Nemame nikakva losa namera, ne sakame nikoj da kontrolirame, nitu da vi naredvime. Nas sigurno ni a gajle za sve so se desavat vo Makedonija, ama ko ke dojdit do aktivizam, nas ne interesirat samo temite so imet vrska so nasiot identitet, deka identitetot e od site Makedonci, bez razlika od kaj se rodeni ili kaj ziveet momentalno. Do negde se soglasvam so tebe, deka nie nemame pravo za nekoj temi, da vi kazvime so da pravite, deka kraj na denot vie ste tie so ke morate da zivejte tamu, ama setne po istata logika nemate samo vie pravo da odlucvite za nasiot identitet, dali me razbiras? Deka utre i nie ke morame da zivejme so posledicite, ako go izgubime identitetot. Toj ne e samo vas ama i nas, taka kako so nemojs ti da dozvolis i nie ne mozime, dali mozis barem tolku da mi priznajs?

Vtoro edna kratka lekcija za nasite "komsi" tie ne ni se samo komsi, tie ni se ne priateli. Sekoj den vo bugarija se vrtit propaganda, deka nie sme bugari, preeska citav ovde no forumov ti kaj so komentiras protiv eden bugarin i negovata propaganda. Znacit si protiv nivnata propaganda, ama isto vremeno ne svajkas deka cim mu zemis pasos, mu zemas i niv identitet, deka setne te vodet bugarin so zivejt vo Makedonija, setne se falet kolku "bugari" ziveet vo Makedonija, i kolku Makedonci si go prifajket nivnoto bugarsko poteklo, dali to go razbiras? Nemojs od edna strana da bidis protiv nivnata propaganda, i od druga da e podrzavas. Sekoj den nivnite politicari jadet lajna za nas, i tie bugarski pasosi se samo pojke amunicija za niv.

Mrazime ako sakas, vikajmi sekako, ama barem razmisli za nekoj od ovie temi, razmisli zosto e tolku loso da zemis bugarski pasos, ili zosto identitetot ne e samo tvoj ama i moj.

[Vangelovski]

Gocka, I think Ramo goes by an old Macedonian saying, "gazot mi boli" (sometimes expressed as "kurot mi boli".

[Gocka]

Gocka, I think Ramo goes by an old Macedonian saying, "gazot mi boli" (sometimes expressed as "kurot mi boli".

I know it as kurot me bolit, I guess being younger and from he Republic.

See despite his sentiment that I am scum, it pains me that these are the type of relations that we have with people from the republic, it was not too long ago that I lived in the republic, and struggled just like anyone else, but look how quickly we are cast away as no longer one of them. Its sick, its sickening I get this uneasy feeling deep down, when I have to curse and insult one of my own in this manner.

Is this really what they want? Has it really come to this?

[Risto the Great]

Is this really what they want? Has it really come to this?

Nah. I just wish they actually had some real desire for change.

They will never understand the freedom we enjoy outside of Macedonia (until they experience it themselves).

I guess one way to help them is to more clearly try to crystallise or distil the essence of this kind of freedom we enjoy. They might want it. Or they may never be able to understand it without really experiencing it.

Of course, some of our freedoms are a façade, but the notion of having it does help with a different kind of mindset.

[Gocka]

Nah. I just wish they actually had some real desire for change.

They will never understand the freedom we enjoy outside of Macedonia (until they experience it themselves).

I guess one way to help them is to more clearly try to crystallise or distil the essence of this kind of freedom we enjoy. They might want it. Or they may never be able to understand it without really experiencing it.

Of course, some of our freedoms are a façade, but the notion of having it does help with a different kind of mindset.

I suppose you are right, I have said that our freedoms here in the west have led as to a different type of mentality, and I guess more demanding of basic freedoms.

So to get this topic back on track, how about taking an approach in line with what RTG said above? Possibly giving people in the Republic a taste of the freedoms we enjoy, can we give them a sample somehow so that they come back looking for more?

RTG can you name a few of these freedoms we enjoy that Macedonians in the republic do not?

[julie]

Gocka it goes with the essence of this thread, Vangelovski knows we are disillusioned, and its more than time for change, its how we can set about doing something proactive and its the rewards base that Makedonche touched on - what is the reward - freedom, true freedom and how we can make them see that is the ultimate goal, without the diaspora being seen to as "interfering" when all we are trying to do is retain our own identity.

I have watched your posts start off gently, gently, and can see your frustration as well Gocka, and its because of the divided mentality that is so deeply ingrained - we need to have a common goal.

[Vangelovski]

Disolusionment does not even begin to explain my thinking/emotions towards everything Macedonian (except perhaps some folk songs). But if we are to retain our Macedonian identity and not betray our forebears or our decendants, then we need to push through the ugliness we have in Macedonia today and lead by example. We can be that light on the hill - is that a plug for change coming from the Diaspora? I don't know. My thinking is very divided on this issue and I don't really know the answer. There are so many contradictory examples from history (and the present) but its hard to see any of them successfully implemented in Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

RTG can you name a few of these freedoms we enjoy that Macedonians in the republic do not?

I guess (for me) it is the belief that I can influence and change something in this nation if my desire leads me to it. I honestly feel this empowered.

There are more. But this sense of empowerment is foremost in my mind.