Mosque near 9/11 site & Burn a Koran day on 9/11

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  • Phoenix
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 4671

    #16
    Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
    I agree with your post. Besides the mosque is 3 or 4 blocks away from the actual 9/11 site. I find alot of the victims families, who are vehemently against the mosque, are being mislead by the media.
    So what even if the mosque was being planned for the middle of the 9/11 site...

    America demands that the victims of conflict move on, it has forced victims to reconcile with their aggressors from conflicts in South Africa to the Balkans but doesn't accept the same terms at home...

    fuckin' hypocrits...their form of Christian fundementalism is every bit as vile as the lunatics that promote terrorism from behind the koran...

    Comment

    • DirtyCodingHabitz
      Member
      • Sep 2010
      • 835

      #17
      Actually burning of the book will not achieve anything except make muslems angry.
      Maybe they want to start a war with Islam in U.S.... and you know who the bad guys are gonna be on the news

      What better way to follow the path of Christ then by burning books and exclaiming hatred for others?
      hmmm true. But I think we should act more civilized.

      There are equal or more extremist sects and religious fanatics in USA than the ones in middle-east.
      Like the Aryan Republican Army. Like the Mexican Mafia's that terrorize in Mexican and in U.S cities that are near the borders.
      Last edited by DirtyCodingHabitz; 09-12-2010, 01:14 AM. Reason: missplaced words.

      Comment

      • Frank
        Banned
        • Mar 2010
        • 687

        #18
        Like the Aryan Republican Army. Like the Mexican Mafia's that terrorize in Mexican and in U.S cities that are near the borders.
        Very true.....

        Comment

        • Makedonetz
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 1080

          #19
          Originally posted by Onur View Post
          I liked this way cuz i bet the clowns of golden dawn pissed of so much to see 100s of muslims praying in the middle of Athens, haha But it looks like they couldn't interfere them this time cuz according to the reports, several embassies of Arabic countries attended to the ritual as well.

          So, i hope Greek government continues to deny building a mosque there so we see ridicules images like that again to show the level of religious freedom in Greece to the world


          Btw, in 15th August, about 2000 Greeks came to Turkey to perform a ritual in a monastery but only 500 people allowed to enter in it, so about 2000 people prayed in the middle of a street but no one in Turkey offended them nor anyone declared that this was a disgrace unlike the Greek bishop said. I wonder when Greeks will learn living in harmony and respect others than themselves.

          Onur i'm sure this is not over yet with the islamic groups in greece. They had an incident in the past with Greek Jews protesting in Solun and they had a huge protest where The Greek Orthodox Church and the Academic World of the Greek People Protest against the Persecution.

          The letter that was sent by Archbishop Damaskinos to Prime Minister K. Logothetopoulos is a monument of courage, national dignity and respect for human ideals
          Makedoncite se borat
          za svoite pravdini!

          "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
          - Goce Delchev

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            Originally posted by Buktop View Post
            American constitution assures the freedom to all to practice any religion they want. I could care less if a Mosque was built on ground zero, as long as they respected and honored those around them, and those that lost their lives for a meaningless, trivial war.
            Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate - If somebody carried out a similar act in Mecca, in the name of Christianity, how long do you think it would be before the local Arabs would accept a church built around the corner from the site of the incident?

            This is a very sensitive and complicated issue that needs cool heads to manage it.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              #21
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate - If somebody carried out a similar act in Mecca, in the name of Christianity, how long do you think it would be before the local Arabs would accept a church built around the corner from the site of the incident?

              This is a very sensitive and complicated issue that needs cool heads to manage it.

              I agree to that. There is absolutely no need to build a mosque by the ground zero point. They can build it to some other place, far from there.

              Also, mosques are not like what the church for christianity. In islam, you are only advised to go to a mosque once in fridays and it`s not a necessity or something. You can only pray at home if you like and it`s totally fine according to Koran. But lately, some people are giving more importance to the mosques then the god gives in Koran cuz these people see the mosques as a place where you can gather people and propagate to them. So, it kinda became like a churches in christianity.

              Actually this is pure politics again. It`s not related with religion again as always. As far as i read from newspapers, youtube is filled with videos of people burning Koran after this 9/11 mosque discussion. Now is this any better? Nope...


              P. S: Btw, it`s already forbidden to build a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia. Maybe it`s forbidden in other Arabic countries too, i`m not sure. You are only allowed to build a mosque in there, similar to Greece where you can only build a church. As far as i know, some churches and/or synagogues which have been build at Ottoman Empire era has been shut down in some Arabic countries when Wahabbis became rulers after WW-1.
              Last edited by Onur; 09-12-2010, 08:07 PM.

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                #22
                Its all part of the plan people…you gotta lotta explaining to do Lucy.

                Its all a government plot to convince Muslims the west is not against Islam only the terrorist who happen to be Muslim in recent situations. Always follow the money trail like the yellow brick road.


                Where’s our NY Maks to highlight this one. Chasing after the UMD chasing after Uncle Sam.

                Mosque building owners nixed $18M offer before taking $4.8M one

                By ISABEL VINCENT and MELISSA KLEIN
                Last Updated: 11:15 AM, September 5, 2010



                The original owners of the Ground Zero mosque site mysteriously spurned dozens of higher bids before selling the prime downtown real estate at a bargain-basement price.

                The Pomerantz family, which had owned the building since the late 1960s and fielded offers after the patriarch died in 2006, rejected at least one bid that was nearly four times what prospective mosque builder Sharif El-Gamal eventually paid, The Post has learned.

                El-Gamal did offer what could be viewed as a sweetener to his $4.8 million bid in July 2009 -- a job as a property manager for a son of the family, Sethian Pomerantz.
                DIDN'T HAVE A PRAYER: Developer Kevin Glodek (inset) is seething after he missed out on buying the property (above) near Ground Zero in favor of Sharif El-Gamal.
                Catherine Nance
                DIDN'T HAVE A PRAYER: Developer Kevin Glodek (inset) is seething after he missed out on buying the property (above) near Ground Zero in favor of Sharif El-Gamal.

                'TEARDROP' MAY FALL

                New York developer Kevin Glodek was livid when he found out the building sold for a fraction of what he offered in 2007 -- $18 million cash -- and wondered whether money changed hands under the table, according to sources close to the deal.

                Glodek and his partners wanted to build a 60-story condo tower with retail space on the Park Place site, had inked a purchase agreement and even had keys to the existing building, according to sources and documents obtained by The Post.

                But Kukiko Mitani -- whose late husband, Stephen Pomerantz, owned the property -- and her brother-in-law, Melvin Pomerantz, a trustee to the estate, went silent at the end of 2007 and Glodek's deal disappeared, sources said.

                Glodek, who owns the ChefsDiet food delivery service and several Manhattan properties, declined to comment.

                The property is now at the heart of one of the most divisive issues in the country -- whether it should be the location of a $100 million mosque and community center. The location two blocks from Ground Zero has been called insensitive, and questions have been raised about whether extremists will help fund the project. Recent polls show that 70 percent of New Yorkers want it moved.

                El-Gamal had his eye on the property for years before buying it in 2009.

                He was not alone in his interest, with some 30 offers showered on the Pomerantz family in what was an overheated downtown real-estate market in 2007, according to a source familiar with the negotiations.

                Yet Mitani previously told The Post the building, a former Burlington Coat Factory store that was damaged in the 9/11 attacks, was a tough sell. She said she was in debt and desperate to unload it after her husband's death and insisted she had no buyers other than El-Gamal.

                Some of the offers were a mere flash in the pan, but others were legitimate, including a $17 million cash deal from one developer, the source said.

                The attraction in this hot market was buying real estate that could be demolished, the source said. A second downtown mosque, not affiliated with El-Gamal, considered spending $18 million for 45-47 Park Place in early 2008.

                But the Pomerantz family -- for reasons that remain unclear -- rejected the offers.

                They took 70 percent less from El-Gamal than what Glodek offered.

                This was a considerable drop even given the 30 percent decline in market values at the time, said Michael Falsetta, executive vice president of Miller Cicero, a real-estate appraisal firm not involved in the deals.

                "That makes us suspicious," he said.

                According to Falsetta, property in the area hovered between $250 to $290 a square foot. El-Gamal purchased the 45-47 Park Place property for the rock-bottom price of just over $100 per square foot.

                In addition to selling the building to El-Gamal, Mitani sold him the long-term lease for the property next door -- a former Con Edison substation -- for $700,000. The buildings had once been joined to create a store.

                El-Gamal has told the utility he wants to buy the building, and appraisals to determine the sales price are under way.

                Glodek was also negotiating with Con Ed before his deal fell apart, the source said. He had offered $12 million to buy out the lease and the property itself.

                Neither Mitani nor El-Gamal responded to requests for comment.

                Glodek is so outraged about the sale to El-Gamal that he'd double the $4.8 million price to get the property, sources said.

                Comment

                • sf.
                  Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 387

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate - If somebody carried out a similar act in Mecca, in the name of Christianity, how long do you think it would be before the local Arabs would accept a church built around the corner from the site of the incident?

                  This is a very sensitive and complicated issue that needs cool heads to manage it.
                  Actually, there's no need to even go into that hypothetical since they don't permit the building of churches in Saudi Arabia now anyway. They are extremely intolerant.

                  But the issue should be what kind of society would we, or in this case the US, like to develop. In the States, the voice of the cool heads is overwhelmed by the bigotry, hatred and ignorance of the multitude.
                  Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #24
                    Originally posted by sf. View Post
                    Actually, there's no need to even go into that hypothetical since they don't permit the building of churches in Saudi Arabia now anyway. They are extremely intolerant.
                    Good point. What if we use Turkey for comparison instead?
                    But the issue should be what kind of society would we, or in this case the US, like to develop. In the States, the voice of the cool heads is overwhelmed by the bigotry, hatred and ignorance of the multitude.
                    I agree, but sensibilities also need to be respected. I hear that the Imam who conjured this idea in the first place is now claiming that a relocation for the proposed building would upset the Islamic world. If that is the case, why on earth suggest it to be built so close to 'ground zero' in the first place? Perhaps in another decade or so the emotions would be less and tolerance increased, but from the onset it just seems too soon for something like this. I can appreciate the fact that there is no 'ill-will' involved on the part of those that want to put up the new building, but they should have thought this through. One can only imagine what the reaction would be from extremist Muslims if a church was built anywhere near an area they considered historically sensitive.

                    If I lost a relative in that disaster I would be disenchanted also. If it were Christian extremists that carried out such an act and then less than a decade later someone wanted to build a church around the corner from the site, I would be equally disenchanted. Like I said before, this is very complicated and I don't think there is a completely 'right' answer whichever way you look at it. Of course Muslims have a right to build their places of worship, but tensions and circumstances need to be factored in, as unfortunate as it is, we are ultimately humans and not robots without emotions.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • sf.
                      Member
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 387

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Good point. What if we use Turkey for comparison instead?

                      I agree, but sensibilities also need to be respected. I hear that the Imam who conjured this idea in the first place is now claiming that a relocation for the proposed building would upset the Islamic world. If that is the case, why on earth suggest it to be built so close to 'ground zero' in the first place? Perhaps in another decade or so the emotions would be less and tolerance increased, but from the onset it just seems too soon for something like this. I can appreciate the fact that there is no 'ill-will' involved on the part of those that want to put up the new building, but they should have thought this through. One can only imagine what the reaction would be from extremist Muslims if a church was built anywhere near an area they considered historically sensitive.

                      If I lost a relative in that disaster I would be disenchanted also. If it were Christian extremists that carried out such an act and then less than a decade later someone wanted to build a church around the corner from the site, I would be equally disenchanted. Like I said before, this is very complicated and I don't think there is a completely 'right' answer whichever way you look at it. Of course Muslims have a right to build their places of worship, but tensions and circumstances need to be factored in, as unfortunate as it is, we are ultimately humans and not robots without emotions.
                      I understand what you are saying and I am not necessarily disagreeing.

                      When you discuss an islamic POV, I understand that it is to place attitudes in perspective. In your SA example, my only concern was that if we aspire to emulating their actions, then at best we would eventually emulate their whole way of life.

                      When we talk about cool heads prevailing, it is directed at all involved. I know and appreciate that it is a highly emotive issue, but it has been hijacked by various interests who have agendas to push. People are generally fairly intelligent creatures, but you find that when they are treated en masse with contempt, as if they are dumb, they tend to conform to that expectation. And we all know that the Americans, radical islamists etc, all use sophisticated PR machines to achieve their goals.

                      The problem, and the concern facing us is how to resist and overcome this force. The consequences of this are far reaching, in particular of our own problems that we face as Macedonians. My approach has always been to appeal to people's highest qualities, their intelligence and their compassion.
                      Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #26
                        Increasing incidents of conflict between Muslim majority, Christians and other religious groups presses nation's secular government


                        A Sunday morning service of the Batak Christian Protestant Church in an open field in the Jakarta suburb of Bekasi turns into a near riot. Hundreds of enraged Muslim men surround the small group, made up mostly of women. Riot police form a line around the Christians. Bekasi police commander Imam Sugianto says they are there to prevent the protest from becoming violent. He says both sides already informed the police of their activities so their job today is to protect both sides.

                        The Batak Christians purchased the land and want to build a church on this site. The Muslim majority in the neighborhood opposes the plan and the local government refused to approve the necessary building permit.

                        Murhali Barda, leader of the hardline Islamic Defenders Front group in Bekasi, says the church's insistence on worshipping on this land is a provocation. He says all Muslims feel insulted because of the Christians' occupation of this area, and also by other insults from the Christians.

                        Barda says those include the case of a 16-year-old Christian boy on trial in Bekasi for allegedly defacing a copy of the Koran. And most insulting, Bardi says, is a recent report on the Internet that a Christian charity group, the Mahanaim Foundation, attempted to conduct mass baptisms in the area. He says it is everybody's right to do good deeds, but when this group does them to convert Muslims away of their religion, then that is a criminal activity.

                        More than 90 percent of Indonesia's population of 220 million is Muslim, although the country has a secular government and its constitution protects minority rights. But over the past decade, there have been a number of clashes between religious groups.

                        Bonar Tigor Naipospos is with Setara, a human rights organization that tracks incidents of religious intolerance and discrimination in Indonesia. He says unsubstantiated rumors about Christians using deceptive practices to convert Muslims fuel the anger in Bekasi.

                        "They think now the Christian is very active, aggressive and push the people to convert their beliefs," said Naipospos. "And they said the Christians use money, use food, or use other enjoyment to change, to convert the people and became the Christians.

                        Thousands were killed a decade ago in sectarian violence between Christians and Muslims in the Moluccas islands in Indonesia. Today, Naipospos says, incidents of religious violence in the country have greatly declined, though religious tension is on the rise.

                        Among recent incidents, there have been attacks on a Christian center in the city of Bogor, and the government essentially has banned the Ahmadiyah - a sect that many Muslims consider to be deviant.

                        The Muslim protests at Batak Church services have been going on for four weeks and have become more intense and threatening. At one point Sunday, protesters nearly broke through the police line, knocking some people to the ground.

                        Police allow in the Islamic Defenders Front leader Barda to urge the Christians to end their service before things turn violent. But church leaders, including Luspida Simanjunta, refuse, saying it is a matter of freedom of religion. She says this conflict happened because the Muslims refuse to recognize the church's existence here. The church's presence is a disturbance to them.

                        The church has filed a court appeal against the government's decision to reject its building permit. Protesters, Simanjunta says, already have forced the church to relocate from the center of Bekasi to its present site. The government has asked the church to move its services to the city hall building, but church leaders refuse to move again.

                        The situation in Bekasi remains tense as leaders try to find a way to both protect minority rights and satisfy the concerns of the majority.
                        I just watched a report on Al Jazeera where thousands of Muslims in Indonesia were out protesting, yelling Indonesia has no place for infidels. Lispuda Simanjunta, the church leader cited in the article above, was also in the Al Jazeera report with another group of women that were attacked. How many Muslim women were beaten in America during the protests against the mosque near 'ground zero'? While America, the so-called defender of human rights has no tolerance, Indonesia, a so-called secular and moderate Muslim state, is no better.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3810

                          #27



                          Developer would sell 9/11 mosque site for right price; imam says switching sites now would be unwise



                          One of the key moneymen behind the proposed Ground Zero Islamic center said he'd abandon the controversial project and sell the site - if a buyer met his asking price.

                          Hisham Elzanaty, an Egyptian-born businessman who lives on Long Island, said he provided most of the funding for the two buildings that will house the center, and supports a mosque being built a few blocks north of the former World Trade Center.

                          But he now says he could sell the buildings - potentially worth millions - if the community doesn't come up with enough cash to build the mosque.

                          "I'm a businessman. This was a mere business transaction for me," Elzanaty told The Associated Press.

                          "Develop it, raze it, sell it," he said. "If someone wants to give me 18 or 20 million dollars today, it's all theirs."

                          The developer - who has largely stayed out of the glaring spotlight generated by the Park51 project - said his real estate partnership paid $4.8 million for half the site last year and has already received offers for three times that price.

                          It was not immediately clear if Elzanaty had the authority or financial stake needed to sell, according to The Associated Press.

                          If Elzanaty did sell, it would potentially end the heated debate surrounding the Islamic center and the angry rhetoric that has only intensified in the days leading up to the anniversary of the terror attacks.

                          The imam of the mosque conceded Wednesday he would have changed sites if he knew how controversial it would become - but he now believes a switch would anger the radical Muslim world.

                          "If we don't do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world," said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on CNN's "Larry King Live."

                          "It could become something very dangerous indeed."

                          Meanwhile, fearing a Sept. 11 free-for-all at the site of the proposed mosque, the NYPD may shut down the block near Ground Zero, police sources said.

                          For the past several weeks, with the controversy escalating, police officers have regularly driven by the site to discourage vandals, police sources said.

                          The street will be closed to cars on Saturday, as it normally is on Sept. 11.

                          The block will remain open to pedestrians, but cops are ready to reverse course and close the street if necessary, sources said.

                          "It depends on any intel we may get," said one source.

                          Sources also said cops issued only four sound permits for events near Ground Zero - and none for Park51's block. The NYPD did not respond to a request for comment.
                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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                          • Buktop
                            Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 934

                            #28
                            I don't care what anyone else would do in our situation. The US constitution allows for free practice of religion, and does not specify what property or condition. In other countries, they can do what they like, according to thier laws, in the US, I would like to follow the constitution.

                            Why should people be concerned, when this mosque is to be built 4 NY City blocks from ground zero? That's over a mile away, not to mention, there are countless other irreputable sites mere yards away from the site, but a MOSQUE, over a MILE away is a big deal....
                            "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                            Never once say you walk upon your final way
                            though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                            Our long awaited hour will draw near
                            and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

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                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #29
                              If you're unable to see the symbolism and what it would represent, now, you need to take the blinkers off. It is not just the constitution but sensitivities that need to be respected. It's just too soon. Did you lose any loved one's during the 9/11 attack?
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Frank
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 687

                                #30
                                There is a Christian Church and Jewish place of worship not far from the site, what is wrong with a mosque too.

                                This is about building bridges of understanding not American patriotism aka Nationalism

                                Practice what you expect from others Yanks
                                Last edited by Frank; 09-19-2010, 06:03 PM.

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