Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Risto the Great]

Truthfully, I think making any of these NGO's into political organisations is the final 1% of the work. The rest is dedicated to Human rights etc anyway. I therefore see no reason why we should not have them as political organisations.

I have no idea why you brought up the Bulgarian citizenship issue. We all know why many Macedonians have done this and it is nothing to do with OMO. We also know the numbers have been reducing in relation to this matter. But again, do you think the Macedonians in Bulgaria are benefiting from the money handed to OMO by MHRMI & AMHRC? I get the impression we are dealing with a clash of personalities here.

I certainly have questioned Vinozito's attractiveness to Macedonians in Greece. I think more can be done to ingratiate them to the local Macedonians. But either way, I am sure you would agree that the environment is very difficult to work in.

[Grotius]

Last time I checked, the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association (ie: including participation in the political process), without discrimination on any ground, is a 'human right'. These are human rights enshrined in European human rights law, sought by Macedonians in Bulgaria (ie: by OMO), but as we know, denied to them by the denigrating Bulgarian authorities. So what's your point Zoomer? Macedonians not good enough to participate in the political process? To repudiate that degenerate Bulgarian society they are forced to live in? Or should they just stay in their villages like good little peasants?

[vodenka]

The macedonian language classes took place in Voden and Solun last November and December, 2009 and there will be a second term of classes, soon, with more groups. About 40 people in total participated and there is a big request from more people who wish to participate to the classes.
Organization and financing by the "Educational and Cultural Movenment of Edessa/Voden"
with head office in Voden and legal administrator Eugenia Natsoulidou.
Our problem is that we can finace the payment of only one teacher and soon we will need more teachers to teach the Cyrillic alphabet and some grammar rules to people who already speak our language.
These language classes have nothing to do with any other organization in Greece or abroad (Vinozhito, MHRMI). If there is a similar program by an other organization going on in Egejska we would be very happy to know something more about it.

[AMHRC]

Vodenka,

As MHRMI made clear at one point on another forum, classes are in the process of being prepared by people associated with the Misirkov Foundation. We are not going to reveal more than that at this early stage on a public forum. And yes, this will go ahead even if the Greek authorities refuse to register the Foundation. Just like we work with OMO "Ilinden" Pirin, even though the Bulgarian authorities refuse to register that organisation.

We will not engage any further with you on these sensitive matters on a public forum. That is final.

AMHRC.

[vodenka]

Truthfully, I think making any of these NGO's into political organisations is the final 1% of the work. The rest is dedicated to Human rights etc anyway. I therefore see no reason why we should not have them as political organisations.

I have no idea why you brought up the Bulgarian citizenship issue. We all know why many Macedonians have done this and it is nothing to do with OMO. We also know the numbers have been reducing in relation to this matter. But again, do you think the Macedonians in Bulgaria are benefiting from the money handed to OMO by MHRMI & AMHRC? I get the impression we are dealing with a clash of personalities here.

I certainly have questioned Vinozito's attractiveness to Macedonians in Greece. I think more can be done to ingratiate them to the local Macedonians. But either way, I am sure you would agree that the environment is very difficult to work in.

Vinozhito is a political party in Greece by which Macedonians in Egejska can claim, obtain their human rights as citizens. This is very clear, about the role Vinozhito should play. The thing we cannot understand is why Vinozhito members (always the same 8-10 people for 15 years now) want to be the only activists in Greece for the Macedonians and they want to be the leaders for the cultural and educative associations and THEM ALONE! How you people can explain the fact that after so many years of inactivity by Vinozhito party in the Voden region, they now are so active with party office (?) cultural foundation (?), immediately after some Vodenci organized themselves in a cultural NGO, one year ago? After all there are more places in Egejska which need organizations, like Solun, for example. Why everything must be concentrated in Voden?

[vodenka]

Vodenka,

As MHRMI made clear at one point on another forum, classes are in the process of being prepared by people associated with the Misirkov Foundation. We are not going to reveal more than that at this early stage on a public forum. And yes, this will go ahead even if the Greek authorities refuse to register the Foundation. Just like we work with OMO "Ilinden" Pirin, even though the Bulgarian authorities refuse to register that organisation.

We will not engage any further with you on these sensitive matters on a public forum. That is final.

AMHRC.

Do you really think that our people will participate in activities of any ILLEGAL organization? Or will be Vinozhito party to organize the classes?
You can do whatever you please in financing legal or illegal organizations but please do not lie about the complete failure of these attempts. Our people will never follow and we, as organization, are in big struggle in assuring people that we are NOT Vinozhito "branch", as the big majority of them do not want to be nowhere near it!

[makedonche]

Do you really think that our people will participate in activities of any ILLEGAL organization? Or will be Vinozhito party to organize the classes?
You can do whatever you please in financing legal or illegal organizations but please do not lie about the complete failure of these attempts. Our people will never follow and we, as organization, are in big struggle in assuring people that we are NOT Vinozhito "branch", as the big majority of them do not want to be nowhere near it!

Vodenka
I have been reading your posts with much curiosity/interest and welcome all peoples contributions and opinions here, could you please clarify for me, are you:-
1/. Greek
2/. Greek Macedonian
or
3/. Macedonian Greek?

[Rogi]

That's a bit like calling OMO Ilinden Pirin an 'illegal' organisation, because the Bulgarian authorities won't allow their registration (despite court rulings in Strasbourg).

Are they, in your opinion an 'illegal' organisation?

With all due respect, I think that is a very wrong way to look at things. Furthermore, the only reason why the 'Educational and Cultural Movenment of Edessa/Voden' is 'legal' (in your take on the word) and registered, is because it completely avoided use of the word/term 'Macedonian'.

I understand the reasoning behind that, though really, that's not unlike the Republic of Macedonia changing its' name to be 'registered' within the EU.

[Prolet]

Makedonche, She is just like us only she lives in occupied land. She is Macedonian from Egejska Makedonija, you come from Egej you know what its like being oppressed by the Gjupci.

Sloboda i Pravdina za Makedoncite od Egejskiot Del na Makedonija!!

[Prolet]

That's a bit like calling OMO Ilinden Pirin an 'illegal' organisation, because the Bulgarian authorities won't allow their registration (despite court rulings in Strasbourg).

Are they, in your opinion an 'illegal' organisation?

With all due respect, I think that is a very wrong way to look at things. Furthermore, the only reason why the 'Educational and Cultural Movenment of Edessa/Voden' is 'legal' (in your take on the word) and registered, is because it completely avoided use of the word/term 'Macedonian'. Really, that's not unlike the Republic of Macedonia changing its' name to be 'registered' within the EU.

Rogi, I hear you brother i agree with you, i think its time to get rid of the Ego's and do whats right for our people.

Our Minority in Pirinski Makedonija live worse then the Tursko Robstvo, they have the police hound them,hassle them,threaten them and you heard what the Evroparlamentarec from Bulgaria said about us, my question is why are our authorities holding back and not doing anything about it? Look at what happened with the Spaska Mitrova case and we didnt retaliate, tie po nas so tupajnci nie po nim so leb ebago.

Is Gruevski afraid to rattle some of the bugarofili in his government we all know they exist, i still cant figure out why it is that nobody from the Government hasnt offered any support. They made a cultural cetar in Sofia with that Bugarofilka Dimovska in charge and when OMO Ilinden Pirin activist Ivan Gargavelov labeled it a Bugarski Centar it all made sense to me. I still remember his interview it almost brought me to tears listening to it, to have a Shiptar who was an ambassador to Bulgaria doing the best ever job for the minority there and standing up to the Bulgarian Authorities is a disgrace. When Ljubisha Georgievski was the Ambassador to Bulgaria he never even visited our minority.

We need people like Mane Jakovlevski and Boris Zmejkovski in power, people who will do what is right especially in Egej and Pirin not these clowns with other agendas.

[makedonche]

Makedonche, She is just like us only she lives in occupied land. She is Macedonian from Egejska Makedonija, you come from Egej you know what its like being oppressed by the Gjupci.

Sloboda i Pravdina za Makedoncite od Egejskiot Del na Makedonija!!

Prolet,
Thanks mate, although I would still like to hear her response and what she considers herself.

[sf.]

This discussion and the issues raised have troubled me as I couldn't quite understand the attitudes expressed. After reflection (sitting on this side of the world mind you) I think I've figured the crux of the problem. You have differing philosophies on how Macedonians should organise themselves.

One is based in Lerin, a region that has historically somewhat defied hellenism. Therefore, it's no surprise that they would be more confrontational and provocative in their approach. This is good for publicity and the hopes are to spark the Macedonians into activity. However, the failings of this approach are that given our people in Egejska have been battered for so long, a culture of mistrust exists. Not to mention that they do not want to expose themselves to further and unneccesary dangers.

The other approach is one of stealth. Let's do what we can about reclaiming our ethnic heritage. Baby steps are taken: cultural associations; language and literacy classes etc. There's no need for conspicuity, for needless declarations. What's important is that the Macedonian culture and ethnic identity is strengthened first. If the Greeks take this as ethnic-Greeks learning a slavophone language, let it be so. It's about operating within the system that exists.

The trick for us is to support both approaches and allow them to be independent from each other. The problem is that one movement has a political identity, so it is easy to justify our support. But, how do we help the other movements that can't be easily promoted?

I'd be interested in AMHRC's response to this.

[AMHRC]

SF,

If you had been following the threads, you would have noticed that we are bringing Dimitri out as a representative of a recently established foundation (and yes we will work with the Misirkov Foundation people, whether the Greek authorities choose to register it or not), which has the purpose, of spreading Macedonian culture throughout Egej. The aims of the foundation have already been posted. Dimtri, is coming to our dinner specifically for the purpose of promoting an upcoming pro-Macedonian newspaper in Egej. Language classes are also planned and another very special initiative - of which you will hear more in a few months time.

The fact is we and our partners, MHRMI, do support both approaches. As already explained, we also offered Vodenka's group support , her "friend" zoomer, abusively turned it down. Moreover, Vodenka has made it plain on this forum, that she would only be willing to accept support from us, if we stopped supporting Vinozhito. This quite frankly, is sickening to our committee and we shall no longer engage with her in her extremely abusive negativity. We have had enough.


Regards,

AMHRC.

[vodenka]

Prolet,
Thanks mate, although I would still like to hear her response and what she considers herself.

I am 100% Macedonian, born and raised by my mother and her macedonian family, in Voden. My father was greek but my parents divorced when I was 4 years old. I have no greek relatives or any links (cultural, traditions or customs) with greeks', at least no more than any other Macedonian in Egejska.

[vodenka]

SF,

If you had been following the threads, you would have noticed that we are bringing Dimitri out as a representative of a recently established foundation (and yes we will work with the Misirkov Foundation people, whether the Greek authorities choose to register it or not), which has the purpose, of spreading Macedonian culture throughout Egej. The aims of the foundation have already been posted. Dimtri, is coming to our dinner specifically for the purpose of promoting an upcoming pro-Macedonian newspaper in Egej. Language classes are also planned and another very special initiative - of which you will hear more in a few months time.

The fact is we and our partners, MHRMI, do support both approaches. As already explained, we also offered Vodenka's group support , her "friend" zoomer, abusively turned it down. Moreover, Vodenka has made it plain on this forum, that she would only be willing to accept support from us, if we stopped supporting Vinozhito. This quite frankly, is sickening to our committee and we shall no longer engage with her in her extremely abusive negativity. We have had enough.


Regards,

AMHRC.

AMHRC, YOU SAY SOME LIES, AGAIN! I never said I do not want you to support Vinozhito. How could I stop you doing that? I said and I will repeat everytime the reasons why I disagree with Vinozhito and I do not want to have anything to do with it!