Macedonian-Turkish relations

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    I believe we can handle some competition. We have to.
    You know that you cant unless great powers prefers you to do so and for some time, they don't because of general economical situation or some other reasons which we don't know. More importantly, you don't have to. Like i said, there is other side of the coin, which is friendship instead of hostility, rivalry.





    What do you mean "we are living in totally different conditions?"
    I mean, Turkey is neighboring with middle-east and this is the major difference between you and us. Greece is much more secure than Turkey in geographical terms. We have 75 million population, you got 11 million. We are 16th biggest economy in the world and your economy is in quite same size our single city, Istanbul and you are in crisis too. Turkey is also the 2nd biggest military force after USA in NATO. So, you should stop trying to compete with us and think about other political options.




    Greece and Turkey (as a whole) control only Aegean Sea (excluding its' international waters), not the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. Also, don't forget British presence in Cyprus.
    Turkey also has total control of Blacksea by having biggest coast line in it and totally controlling the entrance or exit from bosphorus of Istanbul. If we wouldn't have a problem in Cyprus we could control whole eastern part of mediterranean sea too(which is the important part of it, with connections to the energy fields)

    What i was trying to say in my previous post here; British or any other great powers presence in mediterranean is the result of our hate towards each other. Do you think British could stay in Cyprus if we would be friendly to each other? For example, if Turkey would have whole island today, we could kick out Brits tomorrow or at least force them to convert it to a NATO base where both Greece and Turkey could use too. I am sure that friendship between Greeks and Turks in the island would do the same. Why do you think Brits prefers to see tension and/or two separate state in Cyprus??? As long as we hate each other, there will be two separate state in there and thats what they prefer to see but the hate leaves us no other option either.

    These are just theories which is quite opposite of today`s situation. I don't think anything will change between Greece and Turkey in near future, so have fun(!) to both of us while we hate each other. :S
    Last edited by Onur; 12-15-2010, 12:58 AM.

    Comment

    • Prolet
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 5241

      Onur, Sheherezad and Onur seem to be very popular in Croatia

      Here is a comercial of a famous Croatian Food Store called Konzum (From Agrokor) they are active in Macedonia aswell.

      YouTube - Шехерезад и Онур во "Konzum"
      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

      Comment

      • fyrOM
        Banned
        • Feb 2010
        • 2180

        Macedonia and Turkey signed a military and financial cooperation



        Skopje, December 24, 2010 (AFP) - Macedonia and Turkey today signed an agreement on military and financial cooperation. The deal is overlooked in Turkey next year and donate the Macedonian military assistance in choosing the country amounting to about one million U.S. dollars.

        Moreover, Turkish minisetr Defense Vecdi Gonul, who along with a delegation of the Ministry of National Defence pays a two-day official visit to Macedonia today remnoten Technical Centre will forward a donation for the Army worth about 253,000 dollars.

        Gonul after signing the agreement noted that despite the fact that Macedonia and Turkey have a common border, the Turkish people feel Macedonian as the best neighbor.

        - Turkey is not only the first country to recognize Macedonia, first send an ambassador, but he conceded the country with its 1,000-year historical past, not a shortcut, Gonul said.

        He pointed out that since his first visit to the country in 2004 Macedonia has progressed much in the defense and democracy.

        - Today's signing of the agreement is a step forward for the establishment of cooperation to a higher level of already existing excellent cooperation between the two countries. Whether it is for military training and cooperation in the field of defense cooperation will continue to increase especially in the field of defense industry, Gonul said.

        Turkish defense minister said his country is willing to share their experiences with Macedonia in the field of defense, whether working in the field of military standards, or the military industry. He added that the Macedonian soldiers and officers showed excellent performance in the framework of joint missions. Gonul invited the Macedonian defense minister soon to come in Trucrija vozvratna visit.

        Macedonian minister Konjanovski aodbrana i said that military cooperation with Turkey started in 1993, and intensified since 1994.

        - The year in which as the Ministry of Defence had an extremely important international contacts were unable to close international cooperation with a better meeting than with our proven friend, Minister Gonul. He does not miss a single meeting of Ministers of Defence, attended not ask question and not support the Republic of Macedonia, said Konjanovski.

        Turkey, as I said, is one of the most important partners who assisted in building the capacities of ARM and in recent years has donated equipment worth more than 16 million dollars for the Macedonian army. In addition, more than 600 officers and NCOs of the Army and attended various training courses in Turkey.

        - Our goal is to soon become part of NATO, and we need friends. We know that Turkey is one of our strongest partners who provide us and give us support on the road to the Alliance, said Konjanovski.

        Comment

        • Bratot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2855

          Correction to the translation and pointing out very important line:

          Gonul after signing the agreement noted that despite the fact that Macedonia and Turkey doesn't have a common border, the Turkish people feel Macedonia as the best neighbor.


          The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

          Comment

          • Onur
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 2389

            Macedonia-Turkey: The Ties That Bind
            Standing outside the Ottoman army barracks building, now the National Museum, in Macedonia’s second city Bitola, it is not immediately obvious the site is a shrine for Turks. Yet almost every weekend, a bus laden with Turkish tourists pulls up outside the museum. Visiting the nineteenth century barracks where Mustafa Kemal Ataturk – the founding father of modern Turkey – lived and studied is something of a pilgrimage for the several thousand Turkish tourists who, according to the museum, journey here each year.

            "When they see the building and read the sign in front of it -The founder and first president of modern Turkey Ataturk finished military high school in this building - they are stunned. "But when they enter the room, they are astonished. They see the wax figure of Ataturk and they are so excited that some of them begin to cry,” says Senol Memis, a Macedonian of Turkish ethnicity and president of the Association for Macedonian-Turkish Friendship based in Bitola.

            The story of Ataturk is the story of the Macedonian-Turkish friendship that endures to this day. Ankara has remained Skopje’s biggest ally since Macedonia declared independence from the former Yugoslav republic in 1991. The two nations have been further united by their shared political enmity with Greece over disputed territory, history and the use of the name Macedonia.

            Macedonia came under direct Ottoman rule for more than 500 years, until the Ottomans retreated from Europe following the 1912 Balkan war. Ataturk, who was born in Thessaloniki (now in Greece) in 1881, attended military school in Bitola from 1896 to 1899. His father was born in the village of Kodzadzik, in western Macedonia. He went on to become an army officer during World War One and president of the newly-founded Republic of Turkey in 1924.

            "The emotions Turks feel for Macedonia are specific. Because of the common history, we [Macedonians] have always been treated by the Turks as one of the smallest, and most beloved, children,” says Stevo Pendarovski, foreign affairs professor at the University American College in Skopje. "Even if you talk to people that have been to Turkey only on holidays, they will tell you that Turks treat Macedonians with unreserved friendship", he adds.

            Ataturk, who died in 1938 in Istanbul, is not the only key Turkish figure to have close ties to Macedonia. Dozens of leading Turkish politicians and army generals, past and present, have Macedonian roots. While official figures are hard to come by as questions regarding Macedonian roots have not been included in the latest Turkish census, it is estimated that as many as six million people living in Turkey today have Macedonian ancestry. Many migrated immediately after the 1912 and 1913 Balkan wars and during the 1950s, when many Muslims opted to leave communist Macedonia behind and moved to Turkey for religious and economic reasons. The biggest concentration of Macedonian Turks can be found in the cities of Manisa and Izmir in western Turkey. Many still speak Macedonian and strive to keep their ancestral traditions alive by organising myriad cultural and sporting events in Turkey and Macedonia. There are numerous Turkish-Macedonian associations, and dozens of groups on Facebook dedicated to furthering and supporting Macedonian-Turk friendship and relations.

            In recent times, Turkey earned the unswerving loyalty of many Macedonians after Ankara became the second country – Bulgaria was first - to publicly support Skopje’s declaration of independence and use of the name Macedonia in 1991.

            It has also cemented ties between the two nations – particularly with regard to their complicated relations with Greece.


            Dispute with Greece
            Skopje’s use of the name Macedonia has angered her southern neighbour, as many Greeks believe the name is purely Hellenic. Greece’s refusal to recognise Macedonia also reflects Greek fears that Skopje wishes to reclaim land in Greek territory. In 1993, Macedonia was forced to accept the provisional name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM, in order to become a member of the UN. The already highly-charged name issue erupted once again in 2007, when Skopje changed the name of its international airport to the Alexander the Great airport – prompting Athens to oppose Macedonian membership of NATO.

            Turkey, who is the second biggest supporter of Macedonia’s NATO membership bid after the US, is the only NATO member to insist that every alliance document carries a footnote on the use of the name FYROM. The footnote reads: Turkey recognises Macedonia under its constitutional name.

            In March 2010, Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish foreign minister, met his Macedonian counterpart, Antonio Milososki, in Skopje and fully expressed his nations support in one sentence: "The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, wherever they are in the world can, if they need help, call the embassies of Turkey. They will get help, as they are Turkish citizens."

            Gjuner Ismail, a Macedonian ethnic Turk and former culture minister in the 1990s Macedonian government, says Turkey has always helped and supported Macedonia because it is in Ankara’s own interests to do so.

            "Turkey has supported Macedonia, and I stress this, continuously and unconditionally. Turkey has never set any conditions on its support for Macedonia", says Ismail, who is now president of the Macedonian think-tank FORUM - Center for Strategic Research and Documentation.

            He says that support was vital back in 1995, when Greece imposed an economic blockade in response to Skopje’s use of the name Macedonia. While Greece closed its border with Macedonia, Skopje could not import from neighbouring Serbia as Belgrade was under UN-imposed sanctions. Queues several kilometres long were not an uncommon sight at gas stations during this time. The long lines were slightly shortened after Turkey began sending shipments of oil to Macedonia via Bulgaria.

            Ismail recounts other examples of Turkish support for Macedonia in difficult times: "When we [Macedonia] were supposed to be accepted as a member of UNESCO, the Macedonian delegation of five people was scheduled to speak on the sixteenth day of the conference. That was impossible for us, because it was too expensive at that time to stay for three weeks in Paris". But then the chief of the Turkish delegation, who was supposed to talk on the fourth day, stepped back and freed the place for Macedonia,” he recalls, adding that many Macedonian diplomatic victories have been pushed for by Turkey.

            Davutoglu again demonstrated this support during his visit to Skopje in March 2010: “Turkey gives great attention to the political stability and prosperity of Macedonia because it is the heart of the Balkans. That is why Ankara was one of the first countries that recognised Macedonia under its constitutional name. I believe that the path of Macedonia towards the EU should be opened and the Turkish support for NATO membership for Macedonia will continue. We will always be on the same side as Macedonia because its success is also our success."

            However, some analysts believe Macedonian politicians rely too heavily upon, and too readily presume, Turkish support.

            "Macedonian politicians are not reacting honestly and correctly to Turkish support. The political elites know that Macedonia is part of a bigger picture, a bigger interest, and that is why they behave this way", Ismail says. "Macedonian politicians draw this simple conclusion - Turkey is helping us because we are an enemy of their enemy [Greece] and that is why their support will stay", he adds.


            Warm relations, poor economic ties

            Yet despite extraordinarily warm political relations, trade between the two countries remains poorly developed.

            Professor Pendarovski believes Macedonian politicians themselves have stymied potentially lucrative economic ties between Ankara and Skopje. He says Macedonia’s political leadership has shown no interest in granting favourable conditions to Turkish investors, relying instead on Turkish goodwill and historical ties.

            "Emotions are great, but in business you have to earn something”, warns Pendarovski. "That is why there is not a single Turkish politician who will not use the diplomatic phrase ‘we have great relations, but we also have unused potential in the economy’. After that, he will explain that they are not seeking ‘special conditions’ but simply want the same conditions given to Greek investors.”

            The Greeks, who are widely regarded as Macedonia’s political enemy because of the name dispute, are, ironically, Skopje’s biggest investor and business partner, according to the National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia. At the end of the nineties and into the early 2000s, Greek investors and Greek state companies were allowed to buy strategically important companies, with attractive concessions. For example, in 1999, the Greek state firm Hellenic Petroleum bought a Macedonian oil refinery near Skopje. As part of the deal, the Macedonian government undertook an obligation to repurchase 500,000 tonnes of petroleum jelly over the next 20 years.

            Greek investment in Macedonia for 2009 totalled €380m, far more than the €49m invested by Turkey the same year, according to the bank. Trade figures tell the same story, with the Skopje-based Macedonian Institute for Statistics valuing trade volume between Turkey and Macedonia at €210m during 2010. Trade between Athens and Skopje far outstripped that, valued at €484m for the same year.

            Along with favourable concessions, Sam Vaknin, an economist and former economics adviser to the Macedonian government, believes Greece is the bigger investor in Macedonia because Greek companies "invested in Macedonia as part of a larger, long-term, and government-supported plan to invest in the Balkans, and thus increase Greek influence". "The Turks at that time [the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s] considered Macedonia as not very interesting and a very inhospitable business environment. The Turks are the ones who decided to invest very little here. The investors are afraid, first and foremost, of inefficiency, corruption and favouritism,” he says. Vaknin thinks that the Macedonian market was not on Turkey's radar until 2005, when Vlado Buckovski became prime minister and started working hard to attract more Turkish investors, an initiative that has been continued by Nikola Gruevski, the current prime minister.

            Government attempts to court Turkish investors have begun to yield fruit in the past couple of years. In 2008, the Turkish company TAV won the tender to operate Macedonia’s two airports - Skopje and Ohrid - for 20 years and build another in the town of Stip in 10 years. The deal, which stipulates TAV must refurbish the airports, build new, longer runways and cargo buildings is worth around €200 million over two years.

            While Ankara’s long-standing political support for and burgeoning economic relationship with Skopje is beyond question, some believe Turkey should use its influence to help defuse ethnic and religious tensions within Macedonia. Ankara would be, the reasoning goes, a useful buffer should inter-ethnic tensions again boil over into violent unrest. Relations between Macedonia’s different ethnic communities have been tense for years, particularly since the ethnic Albanian minority have demanded more rights. This boiled over into a six-month military conflict in 2001, resolved by the Ohrid Peace Agreement of the same year. Since then, the threat of new conflicts has never truly disappeared.

            However, it appears there are limits to Turkish influence in Macedonia after all. One former government adviser, who asked not to be identified, warns not all Macedonian citizens would regard Turkey as a welcome influence.

            In particular, Macedonia’s 500,000 ethnic Albanians fear Turkish dominance in the country could come at the price of their identity – despite shared religious and cultural heritage.

            "Turkey… if it wants to help in future, has to be very careful… the problem is that at the moment they are more accepted by the Macedonians than the ethnic Albanians. And to be a buffer, you have to have equal legitimacy among ethnic groups,” cautions the former government adviser.

            10 Feb 2011

            By Darko Duridanski, Skopje and Bitola

            http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...ties-that-bind



            This article is quite good but these two stories surprised me;
            In March 2010, Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish foreign minister, met his Macedonian counterpart, Antonio Milososki, in Skopje and fully expressed his nations support in one sentence: "The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, wherever they are in the world can, if they need help, call the embassies of Turkey. They will get help, as they are Turkish citizens."
            "When we [Macedonia] were supposed to be accepted as a member of UNESCO, the Macedonian delegation of five people was scheduled to speak on the sixteenth day of the conference. That was impossible for us, because it was too expensive at that time to stay for three weeks in Paris". But then the chief of the Turkish delegation, who was supposed to talk on the fourth day, stepped back and freed the place for Macedonia,” he recalls, adding that many Macedonian diplomatic victories have been pushed for by Turkey.


            The author also intelligently talks about the Albanians never desires any Turkish involvement in Macedonia and usually very skeptical about that. We know that this is because they got their own agenda for all muslims in Macedonia and they fear that Turkish involvement can give back the former strength of Turkish minority in there and eventually causing their "agenda" to fail.

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              great stuff onur,it's apity our other neighbour doesnt even recognize us isn't that silly.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                Originally posted by George S. View Post
                great stuff onur,it's apity our other neighbour doesnt even recognize us isn't that silly.
                Whats more interesting is, a Macedonian professor named Panderovski says that Macedonian political leaders doesn't even give the same conditions to Turkish investors as they have given to the Greeks;

                Professor Pendarovski believes Macedonian politicians themselves have stymied potentially lucrative economic ties between Ankara and Skopje. He says Macedonia’s political leadership has shown no interest in granting favourable conditions to Turkish investors, relying instead on Turkish goodwill and historical ties.

                "Emotions are great, but in business you have to earn something”, warns Pendarovski. "That is why there is not a single Turkish politician who will not use the diplomatic phrase ‘we have great relations, but we also have unused potential in the economy’. After that, he will explain that they are not seeking ‘special conditions’ but simply want the same conditions given to Greek investors.”

                Comment

                • makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2008
                  • 3242

                  Originally posted by Onur View Post
                  Whats more interesting is, a Macedonian professor named Panderovski says that Macedonian political leaders doesn't even give the same conditions to Turkish investors as they have given to the Greeks;
                  Onur
                  I find this alarming, it only shows me that there is more Greek corruption and influence in higher places than we expected in ROM. Economically speaking, I can't understand why all foreign investment in Macedonia isn't encouraged at the same level/conditions for all, other than the fact that some countries/investors have leveraged better conditions for themselves by use of subversive means. This I fear will slow down the growth of the Macedonian economy and allow certain neighbours to ciphon off profits from ROM at the expense of ROM government revenue and in turn revenue needed for critical infrastructure/hospitals/schools/airports. It appears the "Southern tentacles" have been allowed to spread too far into ROM.
                  On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                  Comment

                  • Prolet
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 5241

                    Onur, Stevo Pendarovski is pro Opposition this is why he is saying such things, this current government has visited Turkey more then any other, there is a Turkish Tourism Company thats promoting Ohrid in Turkey in a tourism summit in Ankara i believe it was. Gjuner Ismail is Turkish however he is a senior leader of SDSM the current Opposition party of Macedonia but he is a very intelligent person i think he is a professor.

                    Our relations with Turkey are the best they have ever been and even the Turkish side says this, Greece and Bulgaria had that attitude where they thought if they could buy us out that we would bow to their demands. They have tried to bribe our politicians into changing our name but it doesnt work. Now that the Greek investors are there, they dont want to leave because its good for them. The owner of the Veropoulos group in an interview said that he has many problems with the Greek Government, if he didnt like doing business in Macedonia he wouldnt be spending 70 million euros on a new shopping mall in Skopje.

                    A Turkish Medical Group has almost completed building a new optical hospital and now our citizens wont have to travel to other countries for eye surgeries, its an extremely important hospital for us and there will be more like this one in the future.

                    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                    Comment

                    • Imagination
                      Junior Member
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 69

                      Turkey and Macedonia are only friends by vision. Turkey seeks another Ottoman Empire (look at Devetoglu's speaches) and if Macedonia is taken by Greece or whatever country, Turkey will face a very strong Balkan power and will never be another empire.... but if a not so strong Macedonia stays, then the others will fight for it between themselves, if Turkey attacks it will be like the conquering of Byzantium, Bulgaria, Serbia , Macedonia etc... back in the 14-15th century. Not that I have anything against Turkey, its a fine country, I've been there, actually it's great, but it should relax a bit on that empire part... and Macedonia, want it or not, will always be one of the targets of the new Ottoman Empire.

                      Comment

                      • Daskalot
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 4345

                        From the above post we can conclude that you most likely are not a Macedonian, is this correct?
                        Macedonian Truth Organisation

                        Comment

                        • Imagination
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 69

                          Yes, and ? Nothing else to ask or at least say something about the topic ?

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            Originally posted by Imagination View Post
                            Yes, and ? Nothing else to ask or at least say something about the topic ?
                            I have asked you a question based on the given information you have posted above. And as a forum Administrator I have the right to pose any questions my heart desires.
                            Are you Greek, yes or no.
                            If not, what nationality/ethnicity do you belong to?
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

                            Comment

                            • Imagination
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 69

                              Well, I will tell, but I'm more eager to know are you from the diaspora ?

                              Comment

                              • Daskalot
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 4345

                                Originally posted by Imagination View Post
                                Well, I will tell, but I'm more eager to know are you from the diaspora ?
                                You ask many questions but answer few.
                                Let me take a qualified guess on where you are from, are you a Bulgarian living in Bulgaria?
                                Yes or no?
                                Macedonian Truth Organisation

                                Comment

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