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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8531

    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
    Sure, not the best analogy, but it gets the point across I think: UN is pretty much the body that represents admission into the international legal world. Macedonia, although bullied into it, accepted FYROM as its name for the UN...and that trickles down to every other international organization where the members are UN members, where international law under the UN and its branches applies.
    You stated this in the context of the discussion about NATO. Now you claim you never suggested it?
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I never suggested:

      1) That a nation must be a member of the UN;
      2) That international laws can trump national laws (but they can and they do... do some research into environmental laws and laws of the sea...and the law of armed conflict);
      3) That the UN is an elected body;
      4) That the UN is affiliated with NATO;
      or
      5) That there is a provision in the UN Charter stating that what the UN decides on must be accepted by NATO.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
        No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I never suggested:

        1) That a nation must be a member of the UN;
        2) That international laws can trump national laws (but they can and they do... do some research into environmental laws and laws of the sea...and the law of armed conflict);
        3) That the UN is an elected body;
        4) That the UN is affiliated with NATO;
        or
        5) That there is a provision in the UN Charter stating that what the UN decides on must be accepted by NATO.
        If that is the case, what did you mean by the following:

        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
        Sure, not the best analogy, but it gets the point across I think: UN is pretty much the body that represents admission into the international legal world. Macedonia, although bullied into it, accepted FYROM as its name for the UN...and that trickles down to every other international organization where the members are UN members, where international law under the UN and its branches applies.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          It's no secret that the vast majority of the world's states are members of the UN. It's no secret that all states of the EU and NATO are members of the UN. All UN member states have voluntarily bound themselves to the UN Charter (and resolutions and such that arise out of that). Just because NATO is a different organization than the UN, it does not mean that UN members who are members of NATO are not bound by the UN Charter when they are operating under the name 'NATO'. UN is in essence a legal and political body. NATO is basically a defense and military body.

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8531

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            Sure, not the best analogy, but it gets the point across I think: UN is pretty much the body that represents admission into the international legal world. Macedonia, although bullied into it, accepted FYROM as its name for the UN...and that trickles down to every other international organization where the members are UN members, where international law under the UN and its branches applies.

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I never suggested
            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            4) That the UN is affiliated with NATO;
            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            It's no secret that the vast majority of the world's states are members of the UN. It's no secret that all states of the EU and NATO are members of the UN. All UN member states have voluntarily bound themselves to the UN Charter (and resolutions and such that arise out of that). Just because NATO is a different organization than the UN, it does not mean that UN members who are members of NATO are not bound by the UN Charter when they are operating under the name 'NATO'. UN is in essence a legal and political body. NATO is basically a defense and military body.


            What exactly are you trying to say Victor? Are you saying that the UN's resolution on Macedonia's name applies to NATO or not?
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              Yes and no. No, in that individual NATO members can choose to use whatever name they want with Macedonia, and so can NATO if it chooses to. Yes, because countries generally aim at deferring to resolutions made under/with/through the UN...and Article 11 of the Interim Accord has that whole thing about Greece not blocking Macedonia from entering international organizations based on the established name in the IA. So UN members are more likely going to point to that bi-lateral, internationally (UN) respected agreement rather than not, whether they're doing so as part of NATO or another organization.

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                Yes and no. No, in that individual NATO members can choose to use whatever name they want with Macedonia, and so can NATO if it chooses to. Yes, because countries generally aim at deferring to resolutions made under/with/through the UN...and Article 11 of the Interim Accord has that whole thing about Greece not blocking Macedonia from entering international organizations based on the established name in the IA. So UN members are more likely going to point to that bi-lateral, internationally (UN) respected agreement rather than not, whether they're doing so as part of NATO or another organization.
                Hmm...those splinters hurt don't they?
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  Hmm...those splinters hurt don't they?
                  It's called being objective. I know your ego doesn't have room for it, but I hope someone as scholarly as yourself would at least acknowledge that the world isn't black and white.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8531

                    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                    It's called being objective. I know your ego doesn't have room for it, but I hope someone as scholarly as yourself would at least acknowledge that the world isn't black and white.
                    No its called being contradictory, backtracking and basically having no idea what your on about. Or in American speak, flip-flopping. Objectivity has nothing to do with your comments. Do you need tweezers?
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                      Do you need tweezers?
                      Is that what you use to stroke it when looking at Meto's pictures on the UMD website?

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        Is that what you use to stroke it when looking at Meto's pictures on the UMD website?
                        Victor, why is it that people like you, who cannot argue the substantive issue, always resort to penis jokes in the end?
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          Victor, why is it that people like you, who cannot argue the substantive issue, always resort to penis jokes in the end?

                          Tom, why is it that people like you, who cannot argue the substantive issue, always resort to labeling someone as being hypocritical, contradictory, and a back-tracker in the end?

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            Tom, why is it that people like you, who cannot argue the substantive issue, always resort to labeling someone as being hypocritical, contradictory, and a back-tracker in the end?
                            Victor, you still plagiarising? Remember when you had a big sook about other's supposedly not being creative? You are hypocritical, contradictory and a backtracker - and I've even shown you where and why (i.e., hypocritical just above). Now you're being intellectually dishonest - again!
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              1800s -- Turks slaughter tens of thousands Macedonians fighting for freedom from the Ottoman Empire
                              Mid-late 1800s -- Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars initiate assimilation of Macedonian people.
                              1913 -- Macedonia divided by her neighbors.
                              WW1 -- Macedonia suffers greatly by Bulgarian, Serb and Greek occupation
                              1900s in general -- Greeks kill, murder and ethnically cleanse Macedonians, and deny them the most fundamental of rights.
                              WW2 -- Bulgaria and Albania occupy Macedonia.
                              1948-1949-- Greece expels and cleanses tens of thousands of Macedonians.
                              1990s -- Greece forces Macedonia, after a blockade, to be called FYROM and to change its flag.
                              2001 -- terrorist and paramilitary Albanian groups strike in Macedonia

                              2011 -- the ICJ rules against Greece in a case between Macedonia and Greece.

                              What does Tom Vangelovski have to say about what happened in 2011?

                              “This is perhaps one of the darkest hours in the history of the struggle for Macedonian freedom.”

                              Only an egoistical, self-serving nationalist would even dare put the above court ruling in the same category as the real "dark hours" of Macedonia's history.

                              You're creativity is splendid in the above instance -- too bad it's sensational bullshit. You must be the star in your own soap opera.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                                Only an egoistical, self-serving nationalist would even dare put the above court ruling in the same category as the real "dark hours" of Macedonia's history.
                                Are you denying it is a dark hour for Macedonia? Or do you think taking Greece to court to force them to accept us as FYROM was a good idea?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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