Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Soldier of Macedon]

That would be good, but I doubt it, as he seems to have taken a holiday from here after some difference of opinions with myself. I can ask some Turkish friends when I get a chance.

[Mygdon]

what about наоѓа?

[Po-drum]

• бајалдиса : bayılmak
• бендиса : beğenmek
• илдиса : ilmek
• кандиса : kandırmak
• капладиса : kaplamak
• кирлиса : kirletmek ~ kirlenmek
• сардиса : sarmak

Yes, from the Greek -σα. It's actually very old and was used in the oldest OCS texts for Greek loans (one example I remember is власфимисати, 'to blaspheme' < βλασφημῶ, ἐβλασφήμησα).

According to M. Phasmer antic macedonian suffixes -issa and -st- are remnants of illyrian substratum.
If your assumptions are truth, than we should find this words/forms in the greek language..

[Soldier of Macedon]

бајалдиса : bayılmak
бендиса : beğenmek
илдиса : ilmek
кандиса : kandırmak
капладиса : kaplamak
кирлиса : kirletmek ~ kirlenmek
сардиса : sarmak

Deni, spoke with a Turkish friend and these are the different ways that kandırmak can be used (he told me that the word basically means to 'trick'):

kandırmak - trick
kandırıyorum - tricking
kandırdım - (you got) tricked
kandırıldım - (i got) tricked
kandırdın - (he got) tricked
kandırıldım mı? - (did i get) tricked?
kandırıldın mı? - (did you get) tricked?

Hope that is correct. Only had a few moments, will ask him about some of the others when I see him next.

[Дени]

what about наоѓа?

Here we have the PSl. root hodŭ; this word is fairly new and is formed with на-. The /х/ was lost, and /ѓ/ is expected from the palatalization of /д/. Cf. Russian находить.

According to M. Phasmer antic macedonian suffixes -issa and -st- are remnants of illyrian substratum.
If your assumptions are truth, than we should find this words/forms in the greek language..

I don't follow.

That particular suffix (-са) is used for Greek and Turkish loans, just like how -ира is from German but used for almost all foreign verbs.

Deni, spoke with a Turkish friend and these are the different ways that kandırmak can be used (he told me that the word basically means to 'trick'):

There's that <d>! I wonder if that's where it came from in Macedonian...

So the original Turkish word has a few uses (at least according to this online dictionary); Macedonian has the second meaning, but I'm assuming the more common use—"to agree"—is a local innovation.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here we have the PSl. root hodŭ; this word is fairly new and is formed with на-. The /х/ was lost, and /ѓ/ is expected from the palatalization of /д/. Cf. Russian находить.

Does the same root apply to the word наjди? If so, why wasn't the д palatalised in this case?

That particular suffix (-са) is used for Greek and Turkish loans........

I find that interesting. Why do you think it wasn't applied to Latin and/or Albanian loans?

......just like how -ира is from German but used for almost all foreign verbs.

I can see that in words like студира, комплицира, etc, I try and steer clear from such words that bastardise our language, but concede that in some cases in may be unavoidable.

There's that <d>! I wonder if that's where it came from in Macedonian...

I will ask him about some of the others soon, those without the (d) in the Turkish words like bayılmak, beğenmek, etc. From the list you provided above it seems that in Macedonian a (d) appears in place of (m) in the Turkish word.

[Дени]

Does the same root apply to the word наjди? If so, why wasn't the д palatalised in this case?

Sort of. The corresponding form иди is used.

Etymologically, the /d/ is followed by an iotified Big Yus: /djǫ/ > /ѓа/.

[Po-drum]

I find that interesting. Why do you think it wasn't applied to Latin and/or Albanian loans?

I don't follow.

That particular suffix (-са) is used for Greek and Turkish loans, just like how -ира is from German but used for almost all foreign verbs.

Are you speaking about "ica"?? That's "slavic" suffix, as is -(i)sht(a).

собира, извира, замира, разбира...

[Дени]

Are you speaking about "ica"?? That's "slavic" suffix, as is -(i)sht(a).

собира, извира, замира, разбира...

The suffix in these words is -а.

Собира: со- + -бир- (like бере < PSl. *bĭrati) -а.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That particular suffix (-са) is used for Greek and Turkish loans........

I find that interesting. Why do you think it wasn't applied to Latin and/or Albanian loans?

Deni, do you know the answer to the above? Also, is the -ca suffix common in other Slavic languages?

[Mygdon]

what about ептен?

[Дени]

Deni, do you know the answer to the above? Also, is the -ca suffix common in other Slavic languages?

I think because the vast majority of Latin and Greek-derived words are newly loaned from German (and sometimes English and French) and are treated as such, and I can't really think of any Old or Medieval Latin verbs in Macedonian.

Take инсталира and креира for example. They are both ultimately from Latin (installare, creare), but they entered Macedonian via German (installieren, kreieren). An unrelated but similar case is филозофија: some linguists in Macedonia want to reform its spelling and have философија because ζόφος means 'darkness' and therefore филозофија would mean the 'love of darkness'. This is of course folk etymology because we know that 1) this word was taken into Macedonian in modern times from either German or French where both have /z/ and 2) the sigma becomes /z/ in Macedonian in most environments anyway.

Actually, yes. Where Macedonian has -ира, Serbian and Croatian usually have -isati.

what about ептен?

From the Turkish hepten.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is a post from earlier in this thread, with one example of where the -ca suffix is used in a couple of words, but as explained below this could be a result of Macedonian influence from refugees from Ottoman times:

One of our newer members on the forum, Tribunal, has pointed out a song from Thrace (in modern Bulgaria) that utilised the word 'Kandisa'.

The song is called Danova Mamo and is sung by Binka Dobreva, who is from Yambol in the south-east of Bulgaria.

http://www.bnr.bg/RadioBulgaria/Emission_English/Theme_Folklore/Material/Binkadobreva.htm

Here is the clip of the song:
ДаньоВа Мама ( Daniova MAMA ) - YouTube

Here is the text:

http://www.balkanfolk.com/bg/lyrics.php?lyrics_id=2980

Даньова мама думаше,
Даньо ле синко, Даньо ле,
кандисах мама, сандисах

Кандисах мама, сандисах
от бащините ядове,
от бащините кахъри.

Когато бяхте в люлка,
баща ви мене остави,
и в Балкана отиде.

Гледах ва мама, отгледах,
кога големи станахте,
и ви Балкана хванахте.

Елате мама, елате
сватбите да ви направя
на снахи да се порадвам.

На снахи да се нагледам,
и дребни внуци да отгледам.

Given that Yambol does not exactly border the Macedonian region, it could have been argued that it is a word shared in both Macedonia and Thrace, but not Bulgaria proper (Moesia). However, the below indicates that Yambol was a place that received an influx of refugees from Macedonia after the Ilinden Uprising, which means that it could have been brought with the Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yambol

It also hosted Bulgarian Macedonian refugees from the failed 1903 Ilinden Uprising.

There is another similar word called Sandisa, which is more than likely related to the (d)isa group of words we have recently discussed.

Again, a quick effort to try and find a meaning for these words in the Bulgarian language via google translate produces nothing.

These are Macedonian, or at the very most, Macedono-Thracian words.

[Soldier of Macedon]

ζόφος means 'darkness'

That may be where Albanian 'zi' (black) comes from.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There's that <d>! I wonder if that's where it came from in Macedonian...

So the original Turkish word has a few uses (at least according to this online dictionary); Macedonian has the second meaning, but I'm assuming the more common use—"to agree"—is a local innovation.

I finally caught up with him again and he confirmed that the -dim and -din endings are also used for words like beğenmek, so it looks like you were right, the -d in Macedonian comes from one of the below verbs:

kandırdım - (you got) tricked
kandırıldım - (i got) tricked
kandırdın - (he got) tricked

So it would be something like beğenmek -> beğendim, beğendin, etc -> bendi(sa).