Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

[Risto the Great]

Ohridski, are you suggesting the people in charge of the church were Greek after the Phanariot fueled abolishing of the Ohrid Archbishopric? Or are you saying it was always Greek? Define Greek within that context instead of making basic and stupid assumptions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth.

My question was - Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians? Well, can you?

Your comments and views are outdated and simply wrong. Rather than coming here to understand our side, you support the views of Macedonia's enemies and ask for understanding in the name of neutrality, you are no better than the other liars, propagandists and deliberately confused racists that are more openly brazen. The only difference with you is that you try and veil your racisms with civility, but your aims are still more than obvious, know that.

Why else would Macedonians immigrate to Bulgaria when the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia? About � of Bulgarians today descend from Macedonia.

You have no clue about the historical circumstances, and it is clear that you have no intention to accept the truth.

In response to an accusation by a Greek interviewer, where it was suggested that the Macedonians wished to unite with Bulgaria, Nikola Karev stated the following:

We resemble a man who has fallen in the sea and is in danger of drowning any moment. In order to save himself will this man not grab anything he finds before him at the moment, even a snake? We are in this kind of situation. Even if a Turk offers his hand to save us, we will grab it with gratitude. (Acropolis, 8th May 1903)

Is that not neutral? If you want to be neutral, understand the Macedonian perspective and stop trying to smother us with one-sided propaganda that has only the aim of dividing the Macedonians between their neighbours. You want neutral? Let the Macedonians be Macedonians, and go and look for 'connections' and similarities between Croats and Serbs, you will find plenty more there than you will between Macedonians and Bulgars.

[ohridski]

This is what anthropologists have called "imagined communities"(Benedict Anderson). Great in theory concerning communities. However this falls to the wayside if you are born to parents of the same ethnicity or of different ethnicities, whether you like it or not the truth is you are not an ethnic Canadian. No such thing exists. A citizen of Canada you very well may be. Just like a citizen of modern "greece". You may "feel" Canadian through their North Americanized culture. However you are not an ethnic Canadian so stop with the bullshit already. If you want a serious debate then let's have at it or don't waste the forums time with your 15 year old answers. If you want to discuss when Nationalism discovered the Balkans en mass then we can discuss this too. Because there you will see the absurdity of what you call "Bulgarian", a new born state and ideology, start a rigorous propaganda program for Macedonia. I suggest you click the link I posted in the above post. If you are supposedly neutral then click the link and let's take it from there.

This is a rather ignorant response. An ethnic Canadian is any person who feels as such, that’s that.

Unfortunately I don't think this to be true. I think that the supposed "greek" clergy was first and foremost a Christian in the RUM millet. Not the "greek" millet that modern "greek" nationalists assert. If the clergy did call themselves anything it would have been Rum or "Roman", not "greek". Misinterpretations like these are unwarranted.

Rum or Romaeoi is a term that may be used synonymously to Greek.

________________________________________
Ohridski, are you suggesting the people in charge of the church were Greek after the Phanariot fueled abolishing of the Ohrid Archbishopric? Or are you saying it was always Greek? Define Greek within that context instead of making basic and stupid assumptions.

Greek Millet = Rum Millet

My question was - Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians? Well, can you?

Samuel for example

Your comments and views are outdated and simply wrong. Rather than coming here to understand our side, you support the views of Macedonia's enemies and ask for understanding in the name of neutrality, you are no better than the other liars, propagandists and deliberately confused racists that are more openly brazen. The only difference with you is that you try and veil your racisms with civility, but your aims are still more than obvious, know that.

I think you misunderstand. I believe that Macedonian is an ethnicity separate from the Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek ones. But from what I’ve read, there is some sort of connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that didn’t exist between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks. I don’t understand why you’d call me a racist based on what I’ve said. If you are a little more objective we may indeed be able to have a proper discussion.

You have no clue about the historical circumstances, and it is clear that you have no intention to accept the truth.

In response to an accusation by a Greek interviewer, where it was suggested that the Macedonians wished to unite with Bulgaria, Nikola Karev stated the following:

But you claim that Bulgarians have committed the same atrocities to Macedonians that were committed by Serbs and Greeks. Clearly, that would not have been the case, and your statement shows exactly that. If Macedonians were willingly immigrating to Bulgaria that means that Bulgaria was not seen as an enemy, and if it was, it wasn’t seen the same way that Serbs and Greeks were seen.

Let the Macedonians be Macedonians, and go and look for 'connections' and similarities between Croats and Serbs, you will find plenty more there than you will between Macedonians and Bulgars.

I never disputed that Macedonians are Macedonians.. and if I was born in Serbia or Croatia, my interest may indeed have been focused elsewhere.

[George S.]

Ohridski there is a connection between Bulgarians & Macedonians & it's called zilch,zero connection.We have no connection.Did you know there's no such thing as bulgarian it doesn't exist.THe Bulgarians are descended from the Tartars,they adopted the Macedonian language & customs.The rest is propaganda.You have no idea what you have been talking about.Bulgaria had a pretence to take the whole of Macedonia It probably still does.It is harbouring irrendentist ideals.There is absolutely no connection between Tartars & Macedonians.It's like chalk & chesse.Stop sking silly questions we have seen the bullshit that went on under bulgarian propaganda.Bulgaria have allways stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians,Greece has stated Macedonians don't exist Greece is MacedoniaTHey can't make up their mind.The only connection is the crap propaganda you beleive that there is some kind of connection,you'll beleive that incessantly.Real Bulgaria does not exist it was wiped off thousands of years & then the Tartars came they are similar to the MONGOLS who adopted THE MACEDONIAN language,customs,Macedonian heroes,music,dancing,they try to say everything is Bulgarian which we know IS FALSE.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Samuel for example

Is that it, just one example? That's some connection, you made it sound like there were thousands. Please refer me to the contemporary or medieval source that states Samuel's birthplace, and a logical explanation as to why, even after he took control of the territory of the old Bulgar kingdom in Moesia, he did not move his capital, patriarchate, centre of control back to Bulgaria? Why in Macedonia instead of his apparent "birthplace" which was under his control?

But from what I’ve read, there is some sort of connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that didn’t exist between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.

Have I denied anywhere that Macedonians and Bulgarians share similarities that are not shared with others? No. However, you dwell on these similarities like its the 'glue' that should have kept us 'together' with the Bulgars. We saw how well that type of 'glue' worked with the much stronger linguistic and cultural similarities shared by Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Montenegrins in the late 20th century. Yet, even since the early 19th century Macedonians have been telling Bulgars that despite our similarities we are different ethnicities and we want our own.

Why are the similarities so important to you? What are you trying to establish?

I don’t understand why you’d call me a racist based on what I’ve said.

You are alluding to the Macedonian revolutionaries and Macedonians in general as having a 'connection' to the Bulgars, and you are doing your utmost to keep the significance on that point. Again, why are these 'connections' so important to you? What's next, the proposal of union? Would you be in support of such an idea?

But you claim that Bulgarians have committed the same atrocities to Macedonians that were committed by Serbs and Greeks.

Where do I claim that which you quote, in the way you just wrote above? Were Bulgarians as evil an enemy for the Macedonians? Absolutely. You seem to keep suggesting that by the 1900's the Bulgars weren't doing anything untoward in respect to Macedonia and the Macedonians, yet, in 1903, Krste Misirkov wrote the following:

Oh, Macedonians! It is time we realized that the greatest demon Macedonia must battle against is none other than Bulgaria (On Macedonian Matters, Misirkov, 1903)

[Bill77]

Ohridski there is a connection between Bulgarians & Macedonians & it's called zilch,zero connection.We have no connection.Did you know there's no such thing as bulgarian it doesn't exist.THe Bulgarians are descended from the Tartars,they adopted the Macedonian language & customs.The rest is propaganda.You have no idea what you have been talking about.Bulgaria had a pretence to take the whole of Macedonia It probably still does.It is harbouring irrendentist ideals.There is absolutely no connection between Tartars & Macedonians.It's like chalk & chesse.Stop sking silly questions we have seen the bullshit that went on under bulgarian propaganda.Bulgaria have allways stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians,Greece has stated Macedonians don't exist Greece is MacedoniaTHey can't make up their mind.The only connection is the crap propaganda you beleive that there is some kind of connection,you'll beleive that incessantly.Real Bulgaria does not exist it was wiped off thousands of years & then the Tartars came they are similar to the MONGOLS who adopted THE MACEDONIAN language,customs,Macedonian heroes,music,dancing,they try to say everything is Bulgarian which we know IS FALSE.

Spot on George. What gets me is these people have no idea of there own Back ground and yet they claim they are masters of ours.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is a rather ignorant response. An ethnic Canadian is any person who feels as such, that�s that.

No it's not ignorant. It's the Truth.

Rum or Romaeoi is a term that may be used synonymously to Greek.

Really? This is the introduction to Mark Mazower's book 'The Balkans'.



Now where does this state that this was an exclusive term to modern "greeks"?

Greek Millet = Rum Millet

Apparently you have revealed yourself too early imposter hellene. This modern "greek" scholar says differently from what you claim;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

I think you misunderstand. I believe that Macedonian is an ethnicity separate from the Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek ones. But from what I�ve read, there is some sort of connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that didn�t exist between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks. I don�t understand why you�d call me a racist based on what I�ve said. If you are a little more objective we may indeed be able to have a proper discussion.

Why would we want to continue a discussion with someone who is uneducated in simple Balkan history? You not proved yourself to be an imposter but you also proved yourself to be unworthy of further discussion. To call yourself an "ethnic Canadian" is just stupidity kid.

[ohridski]

Ohridski there is a connection between Bulgarians & Macedonians & it's called zilch,zero connection.We have no connection.Did you know there's no such thing as bulgarian it doesn't exist.THe Bulgarians are descended from the Tartars,they adopted the Macedonian language & customs.The rest is propaganda.You have no idea what you have been talking about.Bulgaria had a pretence to take the whole of Macedonia It probably still does.It is harbouring irrendentist ideals.There is absolutely no connection between Tartars & Macedonians.It's like chalk & chesse.Stop sking silly questions we have seen the bullshit that went on under bulgarian propaganda.Bulgaria have allways stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians,Greece has stated Macedonians don't exist Greece is MacedoniaTHey can't make up their mind.The only connection is the crap propaganda you beleive that there is some kind of connection,you'll beleive that incessantly.Real Bulgaria does not exist it was wiped off thousands of years & then the Tartars came they are similar to the MONGOLS who adopted THE MACEDONIAN language,customs,Macedonian heroes,music,dancing,they try to say everything is Bulgarian which we know IS FALSE.

So how could there be no connection, you just said that the �Bulgarians adopted the Macedonian language, customs, Macedonian heroes, musc, dancing�!? Doesn�t that mean there is a connection? History shows us that all great nations took pride in spreading their own culture, language, etc. to others. I don't understand why you are so negative.

refer me to the contemporary or medieval source that states Samuel's birthplace,

Sumuel�s empire was fairly large and from what I know it was referred to as the First Bulgarian Empire. I haven�t come across any sources that refer to him as Macedonian. Even if they were, I�m not sure how much help they�d be in determining the person�s ethnicity. The Macedonian dynasty in the Byzantium, for example, was actually ethnic Armenians from Macedonia.

Is that it, just one example? That's some connection, you made it sound like there were thousands.

There aren�t a thousand Macedonian heroes either. The point is, that most are shared between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

Yet, even since the early 19th century Macedonians have been telling Bulgars that despite our similarities we are different ethnicities and we want our own.

Yes 'Macedonian' is a different ethnicity than 'Bulgarian', today. But, as I�ve mentioned before, I think the differences are mostly political.

You are alluding to the Macedonian revolutionaries and Macedonians in general as having a 'connection' to the Bulgars, and you are doing your utmost to keep the significance on that point.

All I�m saying is that things aren�t as black and white as you claim. The revolutionaries you speak of have at one point or another identified as both Macedonian and Bulgarian, that�s why they are shared national heroes. You make it seem as if it�s wrong, and the way that you choose to omit certain facts only speaks of a person who is ignorant of the truth or is trying really hard to create a new truth based on fiction.

Again, why are these 'connections' so important to you? What's next, the proposal of union? Would you be in support of such an idea?

I think that such a union would be pointless, considering the EU. All of Europe is going towards a union composed of all European nations. So technically, when Macedonia and the remaining non-EU states join they will all be in a union with Bulgaria and the rest of the EU members.

Where do I claim that which you quote, in the way you just wrote above? Were Bulgarians as evil an enemy for the Macedonians? Absolutely. You seem to keep suggesting that by the 1900's the Bulgars weren't doing anything untoward in respect to Macedonia and the Macedonians, yet, in 1903, Krste Misirkov wrote the following:

I asked what the �evil� things are that Bulgarians have done to Macedonians in comparison to Serbs and Greeks. I haven�t read about any anti-Macedonian actions, murder, rape, etc. from the Bulgarian side in the early 1900's.

And, I�m not quite sure that you are all that familiar with Misirov�s work. He was both a proud Macedonian and a proud Bulgarian, or at least he identified himself as such. From what I�ve read, his works were modified during the time of Yugoslavia to support Tito�s initiative in creating a new Macedonian state that would include Aegean Macedonia so that Yugoslavia would have access to sea in the south.

Most members here, from what I've read so far, seem to lack objectivity. It's unfortunate, as I don't think that the lack of objectivity is productive.

[Bratot]

I asked what the �evil� things are that Bulgarians have done to Macedonians in comparison to Serbs and Greeks. I haven�t read about any anti-Macedonian actions, murder, rape, etc. from the Bulgarian side in the early 1900's.

.

You lil scum.. you are still here?

You haven't read huh?

YouTube - Bulgarian Terror Part I

YouTube - Bulgaria Terror Part II

YouTube - Bulgarian Terror Part III



YouTube - Македонски херои кои загинаа во Втората светска војна



�Министър-Председател Д-р С. Данев:

Имам чест да ви съобщя за сведение, че Министерският съвет, в заседанието си от оная вечер реши да се разтурят всички македоно-одрински организации, комитети и т. н. Относително лицата, които, като членове на тези комитети, са се провинили в конкретни престъпни деяния, ще има думата, когато му дойде редът, съдебната власт....�



" Војната што ја води бугарската буржоазија не е за никакво обединување на бугарското племе, туку за бугарска хегемонија на Балканот, поточно, да завладее со местата кои и се неопходни на бугарската буржоазија да излезе иа големите воденн патешта и на Егејского Море ... Ако сте убедени, господа пратеници, дека во Добруџа живеат Бугари, дека во Поморавјето еле во Македонија живеат Бугари, дека во Серес, Драма и Кавала се Бугари, тогаш зошто се плашите од формулата што ја предлага рускиот мир - "мир без анексија, без обештетување, со право иа нациите на самоопределување". Ако сте убедени дека во некои од овие места има Бугари, нека се спроведе референдум н ќе видме што ќе каже тој. ...Зошто кревате врева? Значи не сте сигурни. Значи има нешто што ве возбудува. Има некои области кои се завладеани од вас, кои ако се подложат на референдум ќе ви се извлечат од рацете..."

(Орде Ивановски, "Искажувања на Димитар Благоев за народноста на Македонците пред бугарскиот парламент во 1917 година". Современост, Скопје, јануари, 1967, стр. 77�81).

[Risto the Great]

There aren�t a thousand Macedonian heroes either. The point is, that most are shared between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Bulgarians

Even with the Bulgarian mind-meld that has been going on for the last 100 years, you will find a few Macedonians scattered here and there amongst this group. I find their inclusion ridiculous but, then again, Greeks still celebrate Alexander the Great as well. Go figure.

[TrueMacedonian]

ohridski said

I asked what the �evil� things are that Bulgarians have done to Macedonians in comparison to Serbs and Greeks. I haven�t read about any anti-Macedonian actions, murder, rape, etc. from the Bulgarian side in the early 1900's.

And, I�m not quite sure that you are all that familiar with Misirov�s work. He was both a proud Macedonian and a proud Bulgarian, or at least he identified himself as such. From what I�ve read, his works were modified during the time of Yugoslavia to support Tito�s initiative in creating a new Macedonian state that would include Aegean Macedonia so that Yugoslavia would have access to sea in the south.

Most members here, from what I've read so far, seem to lack objectivity. It's unfortunate, as I don't think that the lack of objectivity is productive.

I think what you lack are the sources from which you claim you have,,,imposter hellene. I've returned your questions with answers, not just from me, but from scholarly sources. You seem to be peddling an agenda on here so this will be the last time I respond to you. Ask you a question and you slime around it with more BS. Typical imposter hellene tactics.

[TrueMacedonian]

So I guess now would be a good time to ask if in 1767 when the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished was it to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?

Back to the original point of this topic. Was the Ohrid Archbishopric abolished in 1767 so as to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?

I know many people, scholars, and Macedonians say that this is the case. That in 1767 the Patriarch in Constantinople wanted to "Hellenize" the Macedonians. Does anybody see the problem here? I actually see it and I am sorry to say actually used to believe that this was the case.

[George S.]

You are right on that one TM but i think some people have sick minds they want to go against the evidence &say otherwise.Both sidesGreek & BUlgarian are as guilty as hell trying to write propaganda crap.They are trying to lie that Macedonians are Bulgarian or Bulgarians are Macedonian they tried different things it hasn't worked to their advantage.Today they are peddling so much lies & bullshit they beleive it as truth.You got brainwashed people like Ohridski who is a Bulgarofile who has jackshit as evidence.It all defies logic how can one race of people share another race of people & have any connections pure & utter crap.The only way is if you spread FALSE PROPAGANDA.Ohridski e GOLEM LAZGO ne e Ohriganec E BULGARIN.Ohridski isa a BUlgarian !!LIAR !

[ohridski]

It all defies logic how can one race of people share another race of people & have any connections pure & utter crap.

Ok so it is confirmed then, you must be confused.

In a previous post you wrote:

Ohridski there is a connection between Bulgarians & Macedonians & it's called zilch,zero connection.We have no connection.Did you know there's no such thing as bulgarian it doesn't exist.THe Bulgarians are descended from the Tartars,they adopted the Macedonian language & customs.The rest is propaganda.You have no idea what you have been talking about.Bulgaria had a pretence to take the whole of Macedonia It probably still does.It is harbouring irrendentist ideals.There is absolutely no connection between Tartars & Macedonians.It's like chalk & chesse.Stop sking silly questions we have seen the bullshit that went on under bulgarian propaganda.Bulgaria have allways stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians,Greece has stated Macedonians don't exist Greece is MacedoniaTHey can't make up their mind.The only connection is the crap propaganda you beleive that there is some kind of connection,you'll beleive that incessantly.Real Bulgaria does not exist it was wiped off thousands of years & then the Tartars came they are similar to the MONGOLS who adopted THE MACEDONIAN language,customs,Macedonian heroes,music,dancing,they try to say everything is Bulgarian which we know IS FALSE.

To which I responded:

So how could there be no connection, you just said that the �Bulgarians adopted the Macedonian language, customs, Macedonian heroes, musc, dancing�!? Doesn�t that mean there is a connection? History shows us that all great nations took pride in spreading their own culture, language, etc. to others. I don't understand why you are so negative.

So first you talk about Bulgarians adopting the Macedonian culture, language, traditions etc. and now you are saying that �any connection is utter crap�!?

The members on this forum are rather hilarious, I mean, some of my friends who also come from Balkan countries told me that there�d be no objectivity on an ultra nationalistic and propaganda filled forum such as this. It�s unfortunate, but the high level of ignorance is rather entertaining. The typical response of a person who lacks knowledge or can�t think for him/herself is to resort to personal attacks, accusations, or insults. It�s funny, but being on this forum among individuals such as yourselves makes me feel even more Canadian. It�s the attitude displayed by some of the members here that has made Macedonia, and the rest of the Balkan countries, into poor, crime infested shitholes.

[George S.]

hOridski(Bulgarian) what connection do you have with bulgaria because you assume that there must be a connection.So if that's the case you are the connection,the missing link in the equation.Speaking Macedonian Or Bulgarian or Greek or english does not make the person the country person.Also exhibiting a behaviour does not make them the persons country.I'll let you work it out i don't think it's too hard unless you lost your marbles.We know who we are we are Macedonian,I speak Macedonian,if you are not happy with that then you are not welcome on this forum & you should say you don't respect us.