Greek logic

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by makedonin

I never said that they would no have been similar people. It is more likely that they had very similar language.

HOW U KNOW THAT ?
Present some source...argument..smth

As for the Ancient Macedonians it is well doumented that they spoke the barbarian language, thus different than the Hellenic, only the Royal House with the nobles adopted the Lingua Franca of the Time, the Koine.

Attic dialect was adopted during Alexander I reign (FIRST HALF OF 5 TH CENT BC).

Koine was formed after Alexander's conquest,during the Hellenistic Period . (323 - 31 BC)

That's 150-450 years later.

The groupation the Peonian, Thracian, Illyrian and Macedonian is very similar to the picture of modern days, languages of the same group of langages.

How on Earth can you tell this?
Any EVIDENCE ?????!?

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by Giorikas

So were they Slavic scouts possibly thet settled ahead of the larger migration worshipping Zora and and founding/inhabiting the undeniably Slavic sounding city called Bylazora? This is huge, we must communicate this to the worldmedia. That would explain how 1000 years before the actual migration Macedonians might have already adopted the unique form of a Slavic language which made more sense then keeping the distinct non-Greek old Macedonian language although many words have remained in Modern Macedonian.

-- If you go with set mind that there must have been some kind of migration, than it will be contradicting to you.

-- how ever there are many Modern Macedonian words when compared with Ancient languages are strikingly similar in the pronounciation and it's meaning and ethymology.

-- your suggestion that the Macedonians adopted any language just shows that you are with the preset that they must have spoken an so called Greek dialect, which has been shown wrong many times.

unfortunally there are not much words left that can be traced to the Anceint Macedonians, so this can't be proven as 100% a fact.

-- and following your sarcasm, why did all of the Greeks left written monuments i.e. wrote like crazy, while the Macedonians who are seposed to be Greek have not left a signgle written monument that can rove their supposed Greek Dialect.

All that is found are some Koine and Attik inscriptions.

thus, we agree to disagree

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by toothpaste

How on Earth can you tell this?
Any EVIDENCE ?????!?

Heard about the Hesychius Alexandrini Lexicon, there are almost all preserved Ancient Macedonian words as well many other Ancient Languages, i.e. Thracian, Phrygian,Persian, Sanskrit, Attik, Lakademonian and many others.

The Section is called Gossoi Ethnika. There is all that one needs to see this, but there are many more hints in the ancient Authors, so it is not in my scope to waste my time presenting something to you, which will than bring no result.

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by makedonin

Heard about the Hesychius Alexandrini Lexicon, there are almost all preserved Ancient Macedonian words as well many other Ancient Languages, i.e. Thracian, Phrygian,Persian, Hindi, Attik, Lakademonian and many others.

The Section is called Gossoi Ethnika. There is all that one needs to see this, but there are many more hints in the ancient Authors, so it is not in my scope to waste my time presenting something to you, which will than bring no result.

I ve read it.The original text is in Greek.


Do u suggest Attic and Lakaidemonian were different languages too?

Whats your conclusion abt Paionian,Thracian and Macedonian after reading Glossai Ethnikai ??

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by toothpaste

I ve read it.The original text is in Greek.


Do u suggest Attic and Lakaidemonian were different languages too?

Whats your conclusion abt Paionian,Thracian and Macedonian after reading Glossai Ethnikai ??

According to Hesychius, yes, he puts them in the same bunch of Languages of Peoples, this might be conected with the fact that even though similar speaking, they had their differences and saw them as two different people, would you dislike that idea?

This is written with the so called Greek i.e. Phoenshian Alphabet translations of the given words are in Koine.

You can't just dump an conclusion about the languages, however one can sense that they might have been similar, although, the Ancient Macedonian could have had two main Dialects i.e. Upper and Lower dialect.

For example, Hesychius records two Ancient Macedonian words who were used for Head:

kevalee and gavalan, alghough the pronounciation could not be 100% sure.

kevalee is seen by some linguists as version of kefalos, while gavalan is more closely to the Modern Macedonian word glava where the meaning is the same, while the the characters V and L have changed places.

How ever in Modern Macedonian we also have the word kelav meaning bold headed where the V and L also have changed places. in old Germanic there is the word kalawa with the same meaning.

There are more such instances of Ancient Macedonian language that show possible Upper and Lower Dialect Forms. But here we can never be sure of it or prove this, that there were two Dialects.

[toothpaste]

The vast majority of Hesychius macedonian word have obvious greek etymology.

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by toothpaste

The vast majority of Hesychius macedonian word have obvious greek etymology.

so you would like!

what ever, I have gone through those greek interpretations of the greek ethimology's so have others, very vague and blurry.


Fact is, that the vast ,say 90%, Ancient Macedonian words by Hesychius are not present in any other so called Greek Dialects, nor they are to be linked to greek ethymology.

[Daskalot]

as Makedonin is saying Toothpaste you are applying Interpetea Greca here.

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by makedonin

so you would like!

what ever, I have gone through those greek interpretations of the greek ethimology's so have others, very vague and blurry.


Fact is, that the vast ,say 90%, Ancient Macedonian words by Hesychius are not present in any other so called Greek Dialects, nor they are to be linked to greek ethymology.

In fact Hesychius main object was to present rear,unusual words and phrases of Greek.

for macedonian...
* ἄβαγνα abagna 'roses amaranta (unwithered)' (Attic ῥόδα rhoda , Aeolic βρόδα broda roses).(LSJ: amarantos unfading.Amaranth flower. (Aeolic ἄβα aba 'youthful prime' + ἁγνός hagnos 'pure, chaste, unsullied) or epithet aphagna from aphagnizo 'purify'[62].If abagnon is the proper name for rhodon rose, then it is cognate to Persian bāġ , 'garden' , Gothic bagms 'tree' and Greek bakanon 'cabbage-seed'.Finally, a Phrygian borrowing is highly possible if we think of the famous Gardens of Midas , where roses grow of themselves (see Herodotus 8.138.2 , Athenaeus 15.683)
* ἀβαρκνᾷ abarknai κομᾷ † τὲ Μακεδόνες Text Corrupted (komai ? , ἄβαρκνα abarkna hunger, famine.
* ἀβαρύ abarú 'oregano' (Hes. ὀρίγανον origanon) (LSJ: βαρύ barú perfume used in incense, Attic βαρύ barú 'heavy') (LSJ amarakon sweet Origanum Majorana)(Hes. for origanon ἀγριβρόξ agribrox, ἄβρομον abromon , ἄρτιφος artiphos, κεβλήνη keblênê)
* ἀβλόη , ἀλογεῖ abloē , alogei Text Corrupted †<ἀβλόη>· σπένδε Μακεδόνες [<ἀλογεῖ>· σπεῖσον Μακεδόνες] spendô)
* ἀβροῦτες or ἀβροῦϜες abroûtes or abroûwes 'eyebrows' (Hes. Attic ὀφρῦς ophrûs acc. pl., ὀφρύες ophrúes nom., PIE *bhru-) (Lithuanian bruvis , Persian abru) (Koine Greek ophrudia , Modern Greek φρύδια frydia)
* ἀγκαλίς ankalis Attic 'weight, burden, load' Macedonian 'sickle' (Hes. Attic ἄχθος ákhthos , δρέπανον drépanon, LSJ Attic ἀγκαλίς ankalís 'bundle', or in pl. ἀγκάλαι ankálai 'arms' (body parts), ἄγκαλος ánkalos 'armful, bundle', ἀγκάλη ankálē 'the bent arm' or 'anything closely enfolding', as the arms of the sea, PIE *ank 'to bend') ( ἀγκυλίς ankylis 'barb' Oppianus.C.1.155.)
* ἄδδαι addai poles of a chariot or car,logs (Attic ῥυμοὶ rhumoi) (Aeolic usdoi ,Attic ozoi ,branches,twigs) PIE *H₂ó-sd-o- , branch
* ἀδῆ adē 'clear sky' or 'the upper air' (Hes. οὐρανός ouranós 'sky', LSJ and Pokorny Attic αἰθήρ aithēr 'ether, the upper, purer air', hence 'clear sky, heaven')
* ἄδισκον adiskon potion,cocktail ( Attic kykeôn )
* ἄδραια adraia 'fine weather, open sky' (Hes. Attic αἰθρία aithría, PIE *aidh-)
* Ἀέροπες Aeropes tribe (wind-faced) (aero- +opsis(aerops opos, Boeotian name for the bird merops)
* ἀκόντιον akontion spine or backbone,anything ridged like the backbone:ridge of a hill or mountain (Attic rhachis) (Attic akontion spear,javelin) (Aeolic akontion part of troops)
* ἀκρέα akrea girl ( Attic κόρη korê , Ionic kourê ,Doric/Aeolic kora ,Arcadian korwa , Laconian kyrsanis ( Ἀκρέα , epithet of Aphrodite in Cyprus,instead of Akraia , on the heights ).
* ἀκρουνοί akrounoi 'boundary stones' nom. pl. (Hes. ὃροι hóroi, LSJ Attic ἄκρος ákros 'at the end or extremity', from ἀκή akē 'point, edge', PIE *ak 'summit, point' or 'sharp')
* ἀλίη alíē 'boar or boarfish' (Attic kapros) (PIE *ol-/*el- "red, brown" (in animal and tree names)[63](Homeric ellos fawn , Attic elaphos deer ,alkê elk)
* ἄλιζα aliza (also alixa) 'White Poplar' (Attic λεύκη leúkē , Thessalian alphinia, LSJ:ἄλυζα , aluza globularia alypum) (Pokorny Attic ἐλάτη elátē 'fir, spruce', PIE *ol-, *el- , P.Gmc. and Span. aliso 'alder')
* ἄξος axos 'timber' (Hes. Attic ὓληhulê) (Cretan Doric ausos Attic alsos grove little forest. (PIE *os- ash tree(OE.æsc ash tree),(Greek.οξυά oxya,Albanian ah,beech),(Armenian. haci ash tree)
* ἀορτής aortês, 'swordsman' (Hes. ξιφιστής; Homer ἄορ áor 'sword'; Attic ἀορτήρ aortēr 'swordstrap', modern Greek αορτήρ aortír 'riflestrap'; hence aorta) (According to Suidas: Many now say the knapsack ἀβερτὴ abertê instead of aortê . Both the object and the word [are] Macedonian.
* Ἀράντιδες Αrantides Erinyes ( in dative ἀράντισιν ἐρινύσι)(Arae[64] name for Erinyes,arasimos accursed , araomai invoke,curse,pray or rhantizô sprinkle,purify.
* ἄργελλα argella 'bathing hut'. Cimmerian ἄργιλλα or argila 'subterranean dwelling' (Ephorus in Strb. 5.4.5) PIE *areg-; borrowed into Balkan Latin and gave Romanian argea (pl. argele), "wooden hut", dialectal (Banat) arghela "stud farm") ; cf. Sanskrit argalā 'latch, bolt', Old English reced "building, house", Albanian argësh "harrow, crude bridge of crossbars, crude raft supported by skin bladders"
* ἀργιόπους argiopous 'eagle' (LSJ Attic ἀργίπους argípous 'swift- or white-footed', PIE *hrg'i-pods < PIE *arg + PIE *ped)
* Ἄρητος Arētos epithet or alternative of Herakles (Ares-like)
* ἀρκόν arkon 'leisure, idleness' (LSJ Attic ἀργός argós 'lazy, idle' nom. sing., ἀργόν acc.)
* ἀρφύς arhphys (Attic ἱμάς himas strap,rope),(ἁρπεδών harpedôn cord, yarn; ἁρπεδόνα Rhodes, Lindos II 2.37).
* ἄσπιλος aspilos 'torrent' (Hes. χείμαῤῥος kheímarrhos, Attic ἄσπιλος áspilos 'without stain, spotless, pure')
* βαβρήν babrên lees of olive-oil ( LSJ: βάβρηκες babrêkes gums, or food in the teeth, βαβύας babuas mud )
* βαθάρα bathara pukliê (Macedonian), purlos (Athamanian) (unattested; maybe food, atharê porridge , pyros wheat)
* βίῤῥοξ birrhox dense,thick ( LSJ:βειρόν beiron )
* γάρκα garka rod ( Attic charax ) ( EM: garkon axle-pin ) ( LSJ: garrha rod )
* γόλα gola or goda bowels,intestines ( Homeric cholades ) PIE: ghel-ond-, ghol-n•d- stomach; bowels[65]
* γοτάν gotan 'pig' acc. sing. ( PIE *gwou- 'cattle', ( Attic βοτόν botón ' beast', in plural βοτά botá 'grazing animals' ) ( Laconian grôna sow female pig, and pl. grônades ) ( LSJ:goi , goi, to imitate the sound of pigs ) ( goitasheep or pig )
* γυλλάς gyllas kind of glass (gyalas a Megarian cup)
* γῶψ gôps pl. gopes macherel ( Attic koloios ) ( LSJ: skôps a fish ) (Modern Greek gopa bogue fish pl. gopes)
* δαίτας daitas caterer waiter ( Attic daitros
* δάνος danos 'death', (Hes. Attic thánatos θάνατος 'death', from root θαν- than-) ,PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave, δανoτής danotês (disaster,pain) Sophocles Lacaenae fr.338[66]
* δανῶν danōn 'murderer' (Attic θανών thanōn dead ,past participle)
* δάρυλλος darullos 'oak' (Hes. Attic δρῦς drûs, PIE *doru-)
* δρῆες drêes or δρῆγες drêges small birds ( Attic strouthoi ) (Elean δειρήτης deirêtês , strouthos, Nicander.Fr.123.)( LSJ: διγῆρες digêres strouthoi , δρίξ drix strouthos)
* δώραξ dôrax spleen , splên (Attic θώραξ thôrax chest,corslet
* ἐπιδειπνίς epideipnis Macedonian dessert
* Ζειρηνίς Zeirênis epithet or alternative for Aphrodite (Seirênis Siren-like)
* Ἠμαθία Êmathia ex-name of Macedonia,region of Emathia from mythological Emathus (Homeric amathos êmathoessa, river-sandy land , PIE *samadh[67]. Generally the coastal Lower Macedonia in contrast to mountainous Upper Macedonia.For meadow land (mē-2, m-e-t- to reap) ,see Pokorny[68].
* Θαῦλος Thaulos epithet or alternative of Ares ( Θαύλια Thaulia 'festival in Doric Tarentum , θαυλίζειν thaulizein 'to celebrate like Dorians' , Thessalian Ζεὺς Θαύλιος Zeus Thaulios, the only attested in epigraphy 10 times, Athenian Ζεὺς Θαύλων Zeus Thaulôn, Athenian family Θαυλωνίδαι Thaulônidai
* Θούριδες Thourides Nymphs Muses (Homeric thouros rushing, impetuous.
* ἰζέλα izela wish, good luck (Attic agathêi tychêi) (Doric bale , abale,Arcadian zele ) ( Cretan delton agathon )[69] or Thracian zelas wine.
* ἴλαξ ílax 'the holm-oak, evergreen or scarlet oak' (Hes. Attic πρῖνος prînos, Latin ilex)
* ἰν δέᾳ in dea midday ( Attic endia , mesêmbria) (Arcadian also in instead of Attic en)
* κἄγχαρμον kancharmon having the lance up τὸ τὴν λόγχην ἄνω ἔχον (Hes. ἄγχαρμον ancharmon ἀνωφερῆ τὴν αἰχμήν <ἔχων> Ibyc? Stes?) having upwards the point of a spear)

(κἄ , Crasis) kai and,together,simultaneously + anô up (anôchmon hortatory password)

* κάραβος karabos
o Macedonian 'gate, door' (Cf. karphos any small dry body,piece of wood (Hes. Attic 'meat roasted over coals'; Attic karabos 'stag-beetle'; 'crayfish'; 'light ship'; hence modern Greek καράβι karávi)
o 'the worms in dry wood' (Attic 'stag-beetle, horned beetle; crayfish')
o 'a sea creature' (Attic 'crayfish, prickly crustacean; stag-beetle')
* καρπαία karpaia Thessalo-Macedonian mimic military dance (see also Carpaea) Homeric karpalimos swift (for foot) eager,ravenous.
* κίκεῤῥοι kí[k]erroi 'pale ones (?)' (Hes. Attic ὦχροι ōkhroi, PIE *k̂ik̂er- 'pea') (LSJ:kikeros land crocodile)
* κομμάραι kommarai or komarai crawfishes (Attic karides)(LSJ:kammaros a kind of lobster, Epicharmus.60, Sophron.26, Rhinthon.18:-- also kammaris , idos Galen.6.735.) (komaris a fish Epicharmus.47.)
* κόμβοι komboi 'molars' (Attic γομφίοι gomphioi, dim. of γόμφος gomphos 'a large, wedge-shaped bolt or nail; any bond or fastening', PIE *gombh-)
* κυνοῦπες kynoupes or kynoutos bear (Hesychius kynoupeus, knoupeus ,knôpeus)(kunôpês dog-faced) (knôps beast esp. serpent instead of kinôpeton , blind acc. Zonar (from knephas dark)(if kynoutos (knôdês knôdalon beast)
* λακεδάμα lakedáma ὕδωρ ἁλμυρὸν ἄλικι ἐπικεχυμένον salty water withalix , rice-wheat or fish-sauce.(Cf.skorodalmê 'sauce or pickle composed of brine and garlic'). According to Albrecht von Blumenthal,[53] -ama corresponds to Attic ἁλμυρός halmurós 'salty'; Cretan Doric hauma for Attic halmē; laked- is cognate to Proto-Germanic *lauka[70] leek ,possibly related is Λακεδαίμων Laked-aímōn, the name of the Spartan land.
* λείβηθρον leíbēthron 'stream' (Hes. Attic ῥεῖθρον rheîthron, also λιβάδιον libádion, 'a small stream', dim. of λιβάς libás; PIE *lei, 'to flow'); typical Greek productive suffix -θρον (-thron) (Macedonian toponym , Pierian Leibethra place/tomb of Orpheus)
* ματτύης mattuês kind of bird ( ματτύη mattuê a meat-dessert of Macedonian or Thessalian origin) (verb mattuazo to prepare the mattue) (Athenaeus)[71]
* παραός paraos eagle or kind of eagle (Attic aetos , Pamphylian aibetos) (PIE *por- 'going, passage' + *awi- 'bird') (Greek para- 'beside' + Hes. aos wind) (It may exist as food in Lopado...pterygon)
* περιπέτεια peripeteia or περίτια peritia Macedonian festival in month Peritios. (Hesychius text περί[πε]τ[ε]ια )
* ῥάματα rhamata bunch of grapes (Ionic rhagmata,rhages Koine rhôgmata,rhôges , rhax rhôx)
* ῥοῦτο rhouto this (neut.) (Attic τοῦτο touto)
* ταγόναγα tagonaga Macedonian institution,administration ( Thessalian ταγὸς tagos commander +ἄγωagô lead)

(sorry for the length)

[Pelister]

Makedonin is dead right.

Even Kalleris's study of "ancient Macedonian" words is weak and full of flaws.

Kalleris uses words that were in use in Macedonia, in very late antiquity, which is a very small window to be looking through.

Now Kalleris is a propogandist, and yet even he admits that at least 30% of ancient Macedonian words that he found, were not Greek. So what were they? It is also important to put these assumptions into context, of what the Greeks thought of the Macedonians, and what the Macedonians thought of themselves, as well as the incontravertible evidence that ordinary ancient Macedonians needed the use of translators to converse with Greeks.

But he is a victim of his own bizarre logic.