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Old 05-26-2010, 04:11 AM   #11
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Zamol sounds like "to pray for" = Za Moli
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:47 PM   #12
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I'd like to know if any of you guys has sources to dispute the alleged Greeknes of the Argaed dynasty of Macedonian kings.The Greeks use this as one of their most powerful arguments about the alleged Greeknes of Ancient Macedonians.I haven't really looked in any other discussion,the answer may be there.If it is can you point me to it or if it's not does any of you have any information about how to dispute this claim?
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:29 PM   #13
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Dragan, I have moved your post to the relevant thread. Mythical descent was often claimed in antiquity, there are Scythians who claimed descent from Heracles and Persians who were tied to Perseus. This has nothing to do with how they identified in the ethnic sense, but rather it was an attempt to glorify monarchies by linking them to gods.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:37 PM   #14
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Hi Dragan and others,

I will take a stab at it. I'm not sure if this was already discussed at some point but here's my two cents.

One good analysis is provided by Ernst Badian. Here's the link:
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/An...ia/badian.html

I will copy and paste two paragraphs from his article -

Of course, as is well known, the claim to Hellenic descent is, as such, neither isolated nor even uncommon. It is perhaps the earliest we know of. And no other monarch had the imaginative boldness of Alexander I in having it authenticated, at the right political moment, by the most competent authority in Hellas. (Perhaps no other monarch ever found such an opportunity.) But by the fourth century, certainly, the rulers of Macedonian Lyncestis prided themselves on descent from the Corinthian Bacchiads--a royal dynasty fully comparable with the Temenid claims of their rivals at Aegae. The kings of the Molossi (another people not regarded as fully Hellenic) were descended from Achilles himself via Pyrrhus son of Neoptolemus: their very names proved it. And if not fully Hellenic, then at least equally ancient and connected with Greek myth. The distant Enchelei in Illyria were ruled by descendants of Cadmus and Harmonia, not unknown in the heart of Greece itself.(19)

Whether aristocratic families in Italy and Sicily were at this time also claiming descent from Greek heroes or if not Greek, at least Trojan does not at present seem possible to discover. We have no literature or "family" art going back to such an early period. On the other hand, it is known and uncontested that, long before the fifth century, Sicilian and Italian tribes and peoples were linked by Greek speculation, and had learned to link themselves, to Greeks or Trojans. The two were by no means clearly distinguished at the time, but conferred common legitimacy and antiquity as properly Homeric. Odysseus as Ktistes seems in fact to have preceded Aeneas, at least in central Italy.(20) This makes it very likely (one would think) that the ruling families of the peoples concerned took their own descent back to the mythical ancestor, thus legitimizing their rule. If so, they would precede Alexander I by several generations.


The most important points are:
i) The ruling elites, in general, took their own descent back to any (useful) mythical ancestor in order to justify and legitimize their rule.
ii) Rulers and elites of diverse tribes also took their own descent back any (useful) religious figure/"ancestor", such as Hercules/Herakles, Zeus, etc. In many cases, the kings and rulers styled themselves as 'sons of god'.

IMHO the main purpose here was to keep the ordinary people obedient and/or not to question authority, but also self-aggrandizement and political interests. Claiming descent from a 'god' or Achilles himself provided the ruler(s) with status of a Deity. I can only imagine how ridiculous even a medieval Christian ruler would sound to ordinary peasants if he claimed direct ethnic/blood descent from Jesus Christ - but this exactly what ancients were doing all along (apparently modern Greeks would be prepared to believe and accept such claims outright). The Macedonian Royal House utilized these ideas and concepts to the maximum for various reasons and goals.

Conclusion: whether the Macedonian ruling elite claimed descent from Hellenes (from Argos) or not is irrelevant. Other rulers did the same/similar thing. Does that prove their Greek ethnic origins? Only as much as it shows that Thracians, Illyrians, Italian tribes, and other nations of antiquity are all "Greeks" or "Trojans". Nevertheless, this is a useless debate. It misses the main topic to debate which is how and why these rulers identified in such a manner in the first place.

In addition to this, we actually know from various historical sources that Macedonian tribes were of non-Greek ethnic origin. One such example is Strabo which modern Greek nationalist historians like to cite, but clearly show they haven't read him carefully.

Strabo considered Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotes to be Barbarians. In one passage he states that the Macedonian tribes of Orestae, Pelagonians and the Elimiotae were of 'ethnic' Epirotic origin which ended up being incorporated into Macedonia. Other tribes were mostly of Thracian stock, and a few Illyrian. Strabo clearly states that Macedonia is "held by the Thracians". It seems that he considered the Paeones/Paeonians and Argeadae to be Thracian tribes.

In the passage below, note how he lists Thracian tribes one after another: Pieres, Paeones, Edoni, Argeadae, etc.:

What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains. And there was also a city Emathia close to the sea. Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said, along with Botton as chieftain. As for the Thracians, the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.


Even the Bottiaei, a tribe of obscure origin, is of non-Greek origin. Some ancient authors list them as Thracians.

All of these tribes ended up forming the Macedonian kingdom and nation at some point, under the leadership of the Argeadae. The connection to mythical Hellenes from "Argos" seems almost obvious a choice to make based on the similarity between the two words: Argos and Argeadae.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:33 PM   #15
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Thanks guys,this will come in handy when facing Gayreek ultra-nationalists in the future.Some more sources and quotes about the matter wouldn't hurt though...
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:41 PM   #16
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From various sources online. Most of these do not necessarily apply to this topic: "Origin of Macedonian Kings".

Strabo, Geography
Book VII, Chapter 7

"And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks; indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by barbarians - Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes - Epirotic tribes."

Note the clear statement that Macedonia is held by the Thracians; that is, Thracians formed the ethnic majority in Macedonia. Thracians also held "certain parts of Thessaly".
Alexander's mother Olympias was a Molossian.

Titus Livius, 'Rome and the Mediterranean'

Book XXXI, page 23, Penguin Classics edition: "...and yet it had a claim to fame almost greater, because of the ancient renown of the Macedonian nation, and the vast extent of their empire, which gave them possession, by conquest, of large tracts of Europe, and the greater part of Asia."

Book XXXII (XXXII.23, pg. 93): "...there was no doubt in their minds that they would easily dislodge the Macedonians and the Greeks."

Book XXXII.34, pg. 101: "Phaeneas, chief magistrate of the Aetolians, made substantially the same demands as the Romans: the withdrawal of the Macedonians from Greece."

Book XXXII.34, pg. 101: "Then he (Philip) began to complain that the Aetolians, like the Romans, were telling him to withdraw from Greece, although they were unable to tell him what were the boundaries of Greece."

As a king of Greek ethnic origin, Philip should be well aware of the boundaries of Greece.

Book XXXVI.17, pg. 253: "There, as you well know, they were Macedonians, Thracians, and Illyrians - all very warlike races: here you have Syrians and Asiatic Greeks, the most worthless types of men, born for slavery."

Others, various authors:

"Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS."

Pausanias

"Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" [1.1.3].

"I have already said in my history of Attica that the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks" [9.6.5].

"After the death of Alexander, when the Greeks had raised a second war against the Macedonians, the Messenians took part, as I have shown earlier in my account of Attica" [4.28.3].

"When Philip the son of Amyntas would not let Greece alone, the Eleans, weakened by civil strife, joined the Macedonian alliance, but they could not bring themselves to fight against the Greeks at Chaeronea. They joined Philip's attack on the Lacedaemonians because of their old hatred of that people, but on the death of Alexander they fought on the side of the Greeks against Antipater and the Macedonians" [5.4.9].

"When Philip, the son of Demetrius, reached men's estate, and Antigonus without reluctance handed over the sovereignty of the Macedonians, he struck fear into the hearts of all the Greeks. He copied Philip, the son of Amyntas" [7.7.5].

Thrasymachus

"Shall we being Greeks, be slaves to Archelaus, a barbarian?"

This line the Greek Thrasymachus attributed to the Macedonian king Archelaus who occupied Greek land with his Macedonian army.

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Old 01-23-2012, 02:32 PM   #17
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But still,Greeks use the claim that the ancestors of the Macedonians actually came from Argos in Pelloponese (the three brothers and all) and settled in Argos in Kostur.Is there any script to support this or is it just another part of the myth?
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:17 PM   #18
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Dragan, these type of discussions can go on forever, but ultimately, each side of the argument needs to come to some sort of conclusion. One relies on myth while the other relies on logic.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:11 PM   #19
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Appian (2nd Century AD)

http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/...ml#%5B%A762%5D
Quote:
[63] Thus Seleucus died at the age of seventy-three, having reigned forty-two years. It seems to me that the oracle hit the mark in his case when it said to him, "Do not hurry back to Europe; Asia will be much better for you," for Lysimacheia is in Europe, and he then crossed over to Europe for the first time after leaving it with the army of Alexander. It is said also that once when he consulted an oracle in reference to his own death he received this answer:

If you keep away from Argos you will reach your allotted year, but if you approach that place you will die before your time.

There is an Argos in Peloponnese, another in Amphilochia, another in Orestea (whence come the Macedonian Argeadae)
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DraganOfStip View Post
But still,Greeks use the claim that the ancestors of the Macedonians actually came from Argos in Pelloponese (the three brothers and all) and settled in Argos in Kostur.Is there any script to support this or is it just another part of the myth?
Dragan, SoM give excellent source about this. Here is another one which in my opinion is also an excellent source:

The Geography
of
Strabo
published in Vol. III
of the Loeb Classical Library edition,
1924

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

Strabo
Geography
p321 Book VII, Fragments

Fragment 11:

What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains. And there was also a city Emathia close to the sea. Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said,492 along with Botton as chieftain. As for the Thracians, p331the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. But of all these tribes the Argeadae,493 as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.

The number 493 near word Argeadae is The Editor's Notes (You can find them below the text on the same link):

493 The name appears to have been derived from the Macedonian Argos, i.e. Argos Oresticum (7.7.8).
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